takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is pretty convincing. He was dead for several days. He initially used the euphamism that Lazarus had gone to sleep, but then plaininly stated "Lazarus has died". His sisters feared that when his tomb was opened there would be a disgusting stench. Jesus raised him from death in front of many people. This is amongst the most brazen and audacious miracles of Jesus.

Even if you think the bible is made up stuff, don't you think that people reading this story shortly after it was written would call bull crap on this? As I believer, I say, yes to that question. I think people would describe this story as false if there were not many, many actual first hand witnesses to this event.

Two points: First, weren't all those who were there long dead when it was written down? Second: Aren't emotional crowds among the most easily misled observers?

The story is in the Gospel of John. Authorship of that book of the bible is generally attributed to John the Apostle. He would have been a first hand witness of these events. As to when the story was put into writing, the earliest dates are likely to be around 60 AD. I think nearly every credible source would date it before the end of the first century (100 AD). So, it is most likely the story was written down and put into the "Book" of John about 30 to 70 years after the death of Jesus.

As a believer, I am perfectly willing to state the the collective memory of the town of Bethany (where this miracle occurred) is sufficient that if the story was a bunch of baloney, somebody from Bethany would have said so. But I fully admit that I have a rather huge bias as a Christian. However, I still think that there is some logic in the reasoning I just stated. I alway wonder why none of the early opponents of Christianity (of which there were many) did not just completely call "BS" on those who professed that Jesus (and Peter were miracle performers. Acts of the Apostles recounts more than a couple of miracles performed by Peter, in the name of Jesus.

Sorry to derail the thread, I'm not trying to proselytize.

Anonymous wrote:The story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is pretty convincing. He was dead for several days. He initially used the euphamism that Lazarus had gone to sleep, but then plaininly stated "Lazarus has died". His sisters feared that when his tomb was opened there would be a disgusting stench. Jesus raised him from death in front of many people. This is amongst the most brazen and audacious miracles of Jesus.

Even if you think the bible is made up stuff, don't you think that people reading this story shortly after it was written would call bull crap on this? As I believer, I say, yes to that question. I think people would describe this story as false if there were not many, many actual first hand witnesses to this event.

Two points: First, weren't all those who were there long dead when it was written down? Second: Aren't emotional crowds among the most easily misled observers?

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add, kind of interesting how there has never been a single case of someone "coming back to life" from a "near death experience" after every single cell in their body has ceased to be alive. Fascinating, that.

There has. There was a woman found frozen and dead, somewhere in Scandinavia I believe. She defrosted in the morgue and came back to life.

No contradiction there. Freezing obviously kept the cells alive.

To some extent it's a matter of definition, though, so I don't think it's worth arguing. But it makes for some good drama -- like Romeo and Juliet.

The story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is pretty convincing. He was dead for several days. He initially used the euphamism that Lazarus had gone to sleep, but then plaininly stated "Lazarus has died". His sisters feared that when his tomb was opened there would be a disgusting stench. Jesus raised him from death in front of many people. This is amongst the most brazen and audacious miracles of Jesus.

Even if you think the bible is made up stuff, don't you think that people reading this story shortly after it was written would call bull crap on this? As I believer, I say, yes to that question. I think people would describe this story as false if there were not many, many actual first hand witnesses to this event.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's kind of uncanny how people's near-death experiences are conditioned by their own belief systems and cultures - rarely (never?) is it polytheistic, and feature a more vengeful deity.

+1 This is very wise.

That's because God is NOT polytheistic, and is not vengeful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Being "pronounced dead" is not the same as being wholly dead.

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain human and many other organisms' lives.[1] It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest.

Wikipedia

The woman was clinically dead for like 3 hours.

That's not unusual. A few cases like it happen every year. You're not dead until you are warm and dead. The cold stopped her heart, but lowered her need for oxygen and energy. Her brain, organs, and tissues didn't start to die. As she warmed up while laying the morque, her brain and her autonomic system kicked back in and her heart restarted.

It happens quite a bit. It's not a miracle. It's science.

Other stories:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/02/19/toronto-baby-among-cases-children-survive-cold-temperatures.html

http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antarctica%20fact%20file/science/cold_hypothermia.htm

This study looked at using a cardiac bypass pump on clinically dead victims of hypothermia to rewarm them and found that it could be helpful and increase the chances of survival. The mean time they were doing this was 90 minutes to 3 hours and ten minutes. They had some survivors in that group.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199711203372103

Anonymous wrote:

Being "pronounced dead" is not the same as being wholly dead.

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain human and many other organisms' lives.[1] It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest.

Wikipedia

The woman was clinically dead for like 3 hours.

Anonymous wrote:

There's plenty of supported evidence if you care to spend 5 seconds on Google. But I understand - facts and information are irrelevant for you.

Why don't you give us a link, then, ducky. This is on you, because you're the one that wants to trash the guy. And no links to atheist sites with obvious agendas, please.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This guy is a real piece of work. Religion is big business and brings in the major bucks - I wouldn't be surprised if the author really was looking for a career change. Via Amazon.com:

Oh, please. Someone is making psychiatric diagnosis of him based on the writing? Really?
Why would you change from a neuro-surgeon to a preacher? The latter is much lower paying job and less prestigious.

Did you really overlook the part about his repeated medical malpractice?

I can write that you are a troll, or anything else I want to say about you. I could do a real hit job on you. Based on your writing, and based on me making stuff up. Does that make it true? You tell me.

There's plenty of supported evidence if you care to spend 5 seconds on Google. But I understand - facts and information are irrelevant for you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This guy is a real piece of work. Religion is big business and brings in the major bucks - I wouldn't be surprised if the author really was looking for a career change. Via Amazon.com:

Oh, please. Someone is making psychiatric diagnosis of him based on the writing? Really?
Why would you change from a neuro-surgeon to a preacher? The latter is much lower paying job and less prestigious.

Did you really overlook the part about his repeated medical malpractice?

I can write that you are a troll, or anything else I want to say about you. I could do a real hit job on you. Based on your writing, and based on me making stuff up. Does that make it true? You tell me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add, kind of interesting how there has never been a single case of someone "coming back to life" from a "near death experience" after every single cell in their body has ceased to be alive. Fascinating, that.

There has. There was a woman found frozen and dead, somewhere in Scandinavia I believe. She defrosted in the morgue and came back to life.

No contradiction there. Freezing obviously kept the cells alive.

When I got my EMT training, they taught us that we don't call anyone dead until they are WARM and dead. A cold person can have drastically slowed pulse and breathing and LOOK dead, but still be alive.

No, she was pronounced dead. She had no pulse and no heart beat.

Being "pronounced dead" is not the same as being wholly dead.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This guy is a real piece of work. Religion is big business and brings in the major bucks - I wouldn't be surprised if the author really was looking for a career change. Via Amazon.com:

Oh, please. Someone is making psychiatric diagnosis of him based on the writing? Really?
Why would you change from a neuro-surgeon to a preacher? The latter is much lower paying job and less prestigious.

Did you really overlook the part about his repeated medical malpractice?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add, kind of interesting how there has never been a single case of someone "coming back to life" from a "near death experience" after every single cell in their body has ceased to be alive. Fascinating, that.

There has. There was a woman found frozen and dead, somewhere in Scandinavia I believe. She defrosted in the morgue and came back to life.

No contradiction there. Freezing obviously kept the cells alive.

When I got my EMT training, they taught us that we don't call anyone dead until they are WARM and dead. A cold person can have drastically slowed pulse and breathing and LOOK dead, but still be alive.

No, she was pronounced dead. She had no pulse and no heart beat.

It was a mistake. She wasn't dead, because she wasn't warm and dead. You can have a person who is very, very cold and they don't seem to have a heart beat. When you warm them up, the heart starts beating normally again. The brain isn't dead and the organs aren't dead, but the heart seems to have stopped. This is such a well known occurrence that they teach it to EMTs, which is the most basic, basic level of prehospital care.

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add, kind of interesting how there has never been a single case of someone "coming back to life" from a "near death experience" after every single cell in their body has ceased to be alive. Fascinating, that.

There has. There was a woman found frozen and dead, somewhere in Scandinavia I believe. She defrosted in the morgue and came back to life.

No contradiction there. Freezing obviously kept the cells alive.

When I got my EMT training, they taught us that we don't call anyone dead until they are WARM and dead. A cold person can have drastically slowed pulse and breathing and LOOK dead, but still be alive.

No, she was pronounced dead. She had no pulse and no heart beat.

Anonymous wrote:
This guy is a real piece of work. Religion is big business and brings in the major bucks - I wouldn't be surprised if the author really was looking for a career change. Via Amazon.com:

Oh, please. Someone is making psychiatric diagnosis of him based on the writing? Really?
Why would you change from a neuro-surgeon to a preacher? The latter is much lower paying job and less prestigious.