Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not PP - my only post here has been the one that pointed out that B-CC is overcrowded - but I think the evidence is clear from this thread alone. Immersion parents are freaking out not because the program won't stay together, matriculating to another high school, but because that high school might not be B-CC anymore.

Also, housing prices.

Exactly

I've probably made most of the counter arguments here and my child is not in RCF immersion is not in DCC nor Bethesda. It's just non sensical that a child (through a program promoted by the district) would spend their entire school career in a district, wants to stay there and would be forced to leave because of bitter irrational parents.

Unfortunately, this is the kind of posting that can cause neutral or supportive non-immersion parents to lose interest in your cause. There's no need to attack other parents, it's completely juvenile. Just move to B-CC cluster if you feel strongly about having your child attend B-CC.

I didn't come hear looking for support for cause relax... I'm just commenting on a topic. And again I'm not directly affected by this in any shape or form.

Really? then what's up with the bitter irrational parents line? Bitter and irrational about what? You seriously think the school system shouldn't be required to address overcrowding? How much overcrowding is acceptable? 120%? 150%? What's your personal cutoff? If you're not in Bethesda (as you state above), then why do you even feel the need to weigh in on an issue that does not impact you?

They should address overcrowding but this is not the way. And God forbid in 2013 someone offering support concern for the welfare of someone other than themselves

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Another non-immersion BCC cluster parent here that is supportive of retaining the immersion program. Immersion kids add strength to the upper level Spanish classes, which is a benefit for the BCC cluster non-immersion students working at that level.

Also, many posters on this thread seem to have the mistaken impression that because the immersion program "ends" at middle school, the immersion students can just go back to their home school and get what they need there. BCC is one of only 6 or 7 high schools in the county that offer Spanish 7. Immersion students start high school at higher fluency levels and need these upper level Spanish classes to maintain their fluency through high school.

Also, it's important to remember that BCC is overcrowded for many reasons, not just due to the immersion kids. BCC grants many other non-immersion COSA's and admits some paid students (interesting to note that no public data has been provided on these). BCC overcrowding is also due to the continued insistence of the county to try to stick to traditional building templates and only build to barely meet the projected capacity at any given moment. So, as soon as more building is done, BCC is overcrowded again. The link between capacity at BCC and projected long-term development in the area is broken. A good example of this is the projected development at Chevy Chase Lake, where political/development figures have overridden the suggestions of the planning board staff for lower levels of development. None of the planning for Chevy Chase Lake has taken into account how the new units will affect the BCC cluster schools -- I'm willing to bet that within a few years of building at CCL, North Chevy Chase Elementary, Rosemary Hills and BCC will all be seriously overcrowded (again) because of the lack of foresight/capacity building. The only level that might take longer to get overcrowded will be the new middle school, because it will initially be built for a capacity greater than demand.

I personally would like to see MCPS get it's head out of it's A#$ when planning for future capacity, rather than having MCPS, the BOE, and (shamefully) the BCC PTA clusters scapegoating a small minority of kids in one program for the overcrowding problem. Getting rid of immersion amounts to diminishing the "overcrowding" at BCC by one class per year (25 students), maximum. That is not really a huge difference given that the entering classes at BCC have to be around 400 by this point.

+1. Perhaps the most common-sense post in this thread.

Agreed!! Poster, thank you. Please consider sending an email to the BoE -- you could really just cut and paste (and maybe remove the A@$, LOL). You have put this very well. boe@mcpsmd.org goes to all BoE members.

I am an immersion parent and I am so dismayed at the way the PTAs at RCF, Westland and BCC have handled this issue Shameful is the word for it. They have treated us as if our voice doesn't matter, our perspective doesn't count ... at Westland there has been radio silence about this issue despite its impact on some members. But I'm sure they will continue to take our membership dues!

I agree totally with the prior post at 14:59. I am a parent of 2 RCF Spanish immersion students (one current and one alum) and live in the BCC cluster. Although my children can matriculate at BCC, I feel the proposed COSA policy change impacts our family directly. When we chose the immersion route, we became a part of the county-wide immersion community. My children formed close ties with children not around the corner, but around the county. While parents whose children attend the local school meet and form bonds with parents living in their neighborhoods, we formed bonds with other immersion parents living far from us. The proposed policy change fails to respect the community that immersion students and parents create, and go to great efforts to maintain. The new policy will destroy those bonds at a critical time in my children's development, and they will lose that community that they shared learning and life with for the past nine years. The principle justification, to reduce overcrowding at BCC, seems hollow since there are so few (25? 30?) immersion students who actually request COSAs to BCC. The benefits to the immersion students and their families as well as the entire BCC community, as so eloquently stated by the prior poster, appear to outweigh these considerations.

The 14:59 poster also highlights the benefits to the BCC language program of having the immersion students at BCC, and the lack of appropriate language course offerings at the home schools that those students who are denied COSAs will attend. I can speak to the impact that the lack advanced language courses has on immersion students from personal experience. My older child elected to attend a different MS magnet program and did not continue to Westland. In 6th grade, my child was only allowed to take Spanish One, so to avoid a wasted year, my child sat out Spanish for a year. In 7th grade, my child took Spanish Two, and was still way ahead of the other students, and won an award for language proficiency. Clearly, my child is not being challenged, but was not allowed to take Spanish Three as a 7th grader, because that is the highest level of Spanish offered at that middle school, and there would be no Spanish course course appropriate for my child in 8th grade if my child completed Spanish Three in 7th grade. In light of my child's experience, I fear the immersion students denied COSAs would find Spanish instruction insufficient at their home high school, and the proficiency they worked so hard to develop, with the assistance of MCPS, would be lost.

There are many parts of this process that I do not understand. I do not understand why the BOE, after promising the RCF community an open process and dialogue on any changes to the matriculation path, chose to proceed in an indirect manner. I do not understand why the BCC Cluster rep gave the testimony in support of the proposed change without getting input from all the members of the BCC cluster who would be impacted by the change. I do not understand why this proposed change is justified by the goal of reducing overcrowding at BCC, when the number of students who are denied a COSA will not make a material impact on BCC overcrowding. I do not understand why the RCF PTA has failed to take a position on this matter, and has only, within the past week, polled the RCF community to determine how its constituency feels about the proposed change. I plan to write to the BOE and urge them to reject the proposed policy change and I hope others do the same.

PP - If you can eliminate 25 kids/grade - that's 100 kids which is about 2/3 of the current overcrowding. Does it solve the whole problem? No. But that's a sizable percentage. Should we look at ALL COSAs? Yes. But that doesn't mean you do nothing at all while you work through the other COSAs.

And couldn't this be seen as an opportunity to increase the number of Spanish 7 classes around the entire system? Why should BCC be one of the few when there are surely home school communities that would appreciate the option.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Another non-immersion BCC cluster parent here that is supportive of retaining the immersion program. Immersion kids add strength to the upper level Spanish classes, which is a benefit for the BCC cluster non-immersion students working at that level.

Also, many posters on this thread seem to have the mistaken impression that because the immersion program "ends" at middle school, the immersion students can just go back to their home school and get what they need there. BCC is one of only 6 or 7 high schools in the county that offer Spanish 7. Immersion students start high school at higher fluency levels and need these upper level Spanish classes to maintain their fluency through high school.

Also, it's important to remember that BCC is overcrowded for many reasons, not just due to the immersion kids. BCC grants many other non-immersion COSA's and admits some paid students (interesting to note that no public data has been provided on these). BCC overcrowding is also due to the continued insistence of the county to try to stick to traditional building templates and only build to barely meet the projected capacity at any given moment. So, as soon as more building is done, BCC is overcrowded again. The link between capacity at BCC and projected long-term development in the area is broken. A good example of this is the projected development at Chevy Chase Lake, where political/development figures have overridden the suggestions of the planning board staff for lower levels of development. None of the planning for Chevy Chase Lake has taken into account how the new units will affect the BCC cluster schools -- I'm willing to bet that within a few years of building at CCL, North Chevy Chase Elementary, Rosemary Hills and BCC will all be seriously overcrowded (again) because of the lack of foresight/capacity building. The only level that might take longer to get overcrowded will be the new middle school, because it will initially be built for a capacity greater than demand.

I personally would like to see MCPS get it's head out of it's A#$ when planning for future capacity, rather than having MCPS, the BOE, and (shamefully) the BCC PTA clusters scapegoating a small minority of kids in one program for the overcrowding problem. Getting rid of immersion amounts to diminishing the "overcrowding" at BCC by one class per year (25 students), maximum. That is not really a huge difference given that the entering classes at BCC have to be around 400 by this point.

+1. Perhaps the most common-sense post in this thread.

This is what the county has been asked to look at: ALL COSAs. Immersion students were not singled out. High schools that offer Spanish 7 are B-CC, Richard Montgomery, Rockville, Seneca Valley, Springbrook, Einstein and Watkins Mill. That's 7 out of 20 clusters that have the course available. But you can find a lot of advanced language in MCPS at every high school, including AP Spanish Literature. The county doesn't coordinate with MCPS on making development decisions by design because then they'd be forced to consider the impact on schools and they don't have any interest in doing that.

Anonymous wrote:

Another non-immersion BCC cluster parent here that is supportive of retaining the immersion program. Immersion kids add strength to the upper level Spanish classes, which is a benefit for the BCC cluster non-immersion students working at that level.

Also, many posters on this thread seem to have the mistaken impression that because the immersion program "ends" at middle school, the immersion students can just go back to their home school and get what they need there. BCC is one of only 6 or 7 high schools in the county that offer Spanish 7. Immersion students start high school at higher fluency levels and need these upper level Spanish classes to maintain their fluency through high school.

Also, it's important to remember that BCC is overcrowded for many reasons, not just due to the immersion kids. BCC grants many other non-immersion COSA's and admits some paid students (interesting to note that no public data has been provided on these). BCC overcrowding is also due to the continued insistence of the county to try to stick to traditional building templates and only build to barely meet the projected capacity at any given moment. So, as soon as more building is done, BCC is overcrowded again. The link between capacity at BCC and projected long-term development in the area is broken. A good example of this is the projected development at Chevy Chase Lake, where political/development figures have overridden the suggestions of the planning board staff for lower levels of development. None of the planning for Chevy Chase Lake has taken into account how the new units will affect the BCC cluster schools -- I'm willing to bet that within a few years of building at CCL, North Chevy Chase Elementary, Rosemary Hills and BCC will all be seriously overcrowded (again) because of the lack of foresight/capacity building. The only level that might take longer to get overcrowded will be the new middle school, because it will initially be built for a capacity greater than demand.

I personally would like to see MCPS get it's head out of it's A#$ when planning for future capacity, rather than having MCPS, the BOE, and (shamefully) the BCC PTA clusters scapegoating a small minority of kids in one program for the overcrowding problem. Getting rid of immersion amounts to diminishing the "overcrowding" at BCC by one class per year (25 students), maximum. That is not really a huge difference given that the entering classes at BCC have to be around 400 by this point.

+1. Perhaps the most common-sense post in this thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please, keeping the class together isn't going to sell anyone to the cause here. No one is opposed to this in principle but it doesn't apply to at least half the kids zoned for BCC already, so it's pretty irrelevant. Immersion ends before HS, so there is simply no valid reason to add OOB kids to an overcrowded school on the grounds that they and they alone deserve to stay in a single group thrust 12years of MCPS.

It's not just about being in a single group. I'm a non-immersion Westland/BCC parent, and my kids have many friends in this program. At Westland, the immersion kids are mixed in with everyone else for extracurriculars, and for 5 out 7 periods each day. Clearly they build connections and friendships during those times as well.

I also think that the immersion program adds significant diversity to the Westland and BCC community. I'm glad that the immersion kids in my children's cohorts are able to stay (my youngest is rising 9th) for HS, and hope that the next cohorts will be able to as well.

What sort of diversity, SES diversity? FALSE.

Yes, SES diversity among other types. We're a middle class (defined as actually in the middle, income around 85K) family who lives in the BCC cluster, a relative rarity, and find that families like us are rare at BCC. There are plenty of wealthy families, and some very low income families, but few in the middle. When I meet another middle class family, with a nurse, or teacher, or firefighter parent for example, I often find out that they came through the immersion program.

In addition, one thing that I have found challenging for our interracial family in Westland/BCC is that often times SES divisions are close to racial divisions. Often times it's the immersion families who break these connections, middle class or affluent African American families and low to middle class white families seem more common in the immersion population.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please, keeping the class together isn't going to sell anyone to the cause here. No one is opposed to this in principle but it doesn't apply to at least half the kids zoned for BCC already, so it's pretty irrelevant. Immersion ends before HS, so there is simply no valid reason to add OOB kids to an overcrowded school on the grounds that they and they alone deserve to stay in a single group thrust 12years of MCPS.

It's not just about being in a single group. I'm a non-immersion Westland/BCC parent, and my kids have many friends in this program. At Westland, the immersion kids are mixed in with everyone else for extracurriculars, and for 5 out 7 periods each day. Clearly they build connections and friendships during those times as well.

I also think that the immersion program adds significant diversity to the Westland and BCC community. I'm glad that the immersion kids in my children's cohorts are able to stay (my youngest is rising 9th) for HS, and hope that the next cohorts will be able to as well.

Another non-immersion BCC cluster parent here that is supportive of retaining the immersion program. Immersion kids add strength to the upper level Spanish classes, which is a benefit for the BCC cluster non-immersion students working at that level.

Also, many posters on this thread seem to have the mistaken impression that because the immersion program "ends" at middle school, the immersion students can just go back to their home school and get what they need there. BCC is one of only 6 or 7 high schools in the county that offer Spanish 7. Immersion students start high school at higher fluency levels and need these upper level Spanish classes to maintain their fluency through high school.

Also, it's important to remember that BCC is overcrowded for many reasons, not just due to the immersion kids. BCC grants many other non-immersion COSA's and admits some paid students (interesting to note that no public data has been provided on these). BCC overcrowding is also due to the continued insistence of the county to try to stick to traditional building templates and only build to barely meet the projected capacity at any given moment. So, as soon as more building is done, BCC is overcrowded again. The link between capacity at BCC and projected long-term development in the area is broken. A good example of this is the projected development at Chevy Chase Lake, where political/development figures have overridden the suggestions of the planning board staff for lower levels of development. None of the planning for Chevy Chase Lake has taken into account how the new units will affect the BCC cluster schools -- I'm willing to bet that within a few years of building at CCL, North Chevy Chase Elementary, Rosemary Hills and BCC will all be seriously overcrowded (again) because of the lack of foresight/capacity building. The only level that might take longer to get overcrowded will be the new middle school, because it will initially be built for a capacity greater than demand.

I personally would like to see MCPS get it's head out of it's A#$ when planning for future capacity, rather than having MCPS, the BOE, and (shamefully) the BCC PTA clusters scapegoating a small minority of kids in one program for the overcrowding problem. Getting rid of immersion amounts to diminishing the "overcrowding" at BCC by one class per year (25 students), maximum. That is not really a huge difference given that the entering classes at BCC have to be around 400 by this point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please, keeping the class together isn't going to sell anyone to the cause here. No one is opposed to this in principle but it doesn't apply to at least half the kids zoned for BCC already, so it's pretty irrelevant. Immersion ends before HS, so there is simply no valid reason to add OOB kids to an overcrowded school on the grounds that they and they alone deserve to stay in a single group thrust 12years of MCPS.

It's not just about being in a single group. I'm a non-immersion Westland/BCC parent, and my kids have many friends in this program. At Westland, the immersion kids are mixed in with everyone else for extracurriculars, and for 5 out 7 periods each day. Clearly they build connections and friendships during those times as well.

I also think that the immersion program adds significant diversity to the Westland and BCC community. I'm glad that the immersion kids in my children's cohorts are able to stay (my youngest is rising 9th) for HS, and hope that the next cohorts will be able to as well.

What sort of diversity, SES diversity? FALSE.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not PP - my only post here has been the one that pointed out that B-CC is overcrowded - but I think the evidence is clear from this thread alone. Immersion parents are freaking out not because the program won't stay together, matriculating to another high school, but because that high school might not be B-CC anymore.

Also, housing prices.

Exactly

I've probably made most of the counter arguments here and my child is not in RCF immersion is not in DCC nor Bethesda. It's just non sensical that a child (through a program promoted by the district) would spend their entire school career in a district, wants to stay there and would be forced to leave because of bitter irrational parents.

Unfortunately, this is the kind of posting that can cause neutral or supportive non-immersion parents to lose interest in your cause. There's no need to attack other parents, it's completely juvenile. Just move to B-CC cluster if you feel strongly about having your child attend B-CC.

I didn't come hear looking for support for cause relax... I'm just commenting on a topic. And again I'm not directly affected by this in any shape or form.

Really? then what's up with the bitter irrational parents line? Bitter and irrational about what? You seriously think the school system shouldn't be required to address overcrowding? How much overcrowding is acceptable? 120%? 150%? What's your personal cutoff? If you're not in Bethesda (as you state above), then why do you even feel the need to weigh in on an issue that does not impact you?

Anonymous wrote:Please, keeping the class together isn't going to sell anyone to the cause here. No one is opposed to this in principle but it doesn't apply to at least half the kids zoned for BCC already, so it's pretty irrelevant. Immersion ends before HS, so there is simply no valid reason to add OOB kids to an overcrowded school on the grounds that they and they alone deserve to stay in a single group thrust 12years of MCPS.

It's not just about being in a single group. I'm a non-immersion Westland/BCC parent, and my kids have many friends in this program. At Westland, the immersion kids are mixed in with everyone else for extracurriculars, and for 5 out 7 periods each day. Clearly they build connections and friendships during those times as well.

I also think that the immersion program adds significant diversity to the Westland and BCC community. I'm glad that the immersion kids in my children's cohorts are able to stay (my youngest is rising 9th) for HS, and hope that the next cohorts will be able to as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not PP - my only post here has been the one that pointed out that B-CC is overcrowded - but I think the evidence is clear from this thread alone. Immersion parents are freaking out not because the program won't stay together, matriculating to another high school, but because that high school might not be B-CC anymore.

Also, housing prices.

Exactly

I've probably made most of the counter arguments here and my child is not in RCF immersion is not in DCC nor Bethesda. It's just non sensical that a child (through a program promoted by the district) would spend their entire school career in a district, wants to stay there and would be forced to leave because of bitter irrational parents.

Unfortunately, this is the kind of posting that can cause neutral or supportive non-immersion parents to lose interest in your cause. There's no need to attack other parents, it's completely juvenile. Just move to B-CC cluster if you feel strongly about having your child attend B-CC.

I didn't come hear looking for support for cause relax... I'm just commenting on a topic. And again I'm not directly affected by this in any shape or form.

Please, keeping the class together isn't going to sell anyone to the cause here. No one is opposed to this in principle but it doesn't apply to at least half the kids zoned for BCC already, so it's pretty irrelevant. Immersion ends before HS, so there is simply no valid reason to add OOB kids to an overcrowded school on the grounds that they and they alone deserve to stay in a single group thrust 12years of MCPS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not PP - my only post here has been the one that pointed out that B-CC is overcrowded - but I think the evidence is clear from this thread alone. Immersion parents are freaking out not because the program won't stay together, matriculating to another high school, but because that high school might not be B-CC anymore.

Also, housing prices.

Exactly

I've probably made most of the counter arguments here and my child is not in RCF immersion is not in DCC nor Bethesda. It's just non sensical that a child (through a program promoted by the district) would spend their entire school career in a district, wants to stay there and would be forced to leave because of bitter irrational parents.

Unfortunately, this is the kind of posting that can cause neutral or supportive non-immersion parents to lose interest in your cause. There's no need to attack other parents, it's completely juvenile. Just move to B-CC cluster if you feel strongly about having your child attend B-CC.

Thanks, PP. I think I am mixing up what MCPS is actually doing with what would make more sense in my head.