Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:43     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
No, many Christians do what is pleasing to God by obeying his commandments. Has nothing to do with prayer, Bible study, etc. Just obeying his commandments. Which are really the same "laws" dictated by society.


So, they are not the same. The bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". But we don't kill witches.
Similarly:
Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee. - Leviticus 19:19
or:
When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening

You see, there is some stuff from the bible we follow, and some we reject. Many of our laws have no basis in religion at all.


FYI: Most Christians follow the New Testament. Many things mandated in the Old Testament were done away with with Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. He made the "ultimate sacrifice" and, as such, we are no longer bound by OT laws. Jewish people, who don't believe in Jesus, follow the OT.


So what does the NT say about gays, abortion, out of wedlock births, and whether we have an obligation as a society to take care of the poor, through welfare, and healthcare, and so on? What does Jesus say about self-sufficiency vs. caring for the poorest in society? These are all very important issues to many Christians today. Please tell me what Jesus said about these issues.

As a mere atheist, my position would be to "personally cause the least amount of harm". So I don't interefere with the love between gay people, I don't condemn a child for being a bastard, I support the use of taxes to take care of poor people - and I reluctantly conclude that the pregnant woman has to judge whether an abortion is appropriate in her circumstances. I love the gays and the bastards and the societal "welfare queens" and "takers" and even the women who abort all equally. But I understand from my conservative, Christian friends that they don't necessarily agree with my position. Can you help clarify for me where Jesus stands on these issues?


The NT treats all sin the same. There is no big distinction between the types of sin, so homosexuals are no better/worse than adulterers and liars, according to Scripture.

Jesus's entire life was about helping those in need and not casting judgment. I think where many Christians get lost is that they condemn people vs condemning their sinful acts. I can love my child and if he/she kills someone I will still love them. It doesn't mean I love their act and/or that I don't condemn their sinful act. BUT, it's not my place to judge them. I love them and that's it and leave any "punishment" to God. Many Christians go astray by trying to dole out punishments.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:43     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
So I don't interefere with the love between gay people, I don't condemn a child for being a bastard, I support the use of taxes to take care of poor people - and I reluctantly conclude that the pregnant woman has to judge whether an abortion is appropriate in her circumstances. I love the gays and the bastards and the societal "welfare queens" and "takers" and even the women who abort all equally.


My opinion as a Christian- Jesus would have supported gay marriage. He would have supported taxing the wealthy to provide for the poor. (He said so over and over again.) He loved the prostitutes, the lepers, the beggars, .....as much as he did his own disciples.

However, I do not believe he (or any other true spiritual leader) would support the rights of a women to kill her unborn. He would have reached out in love and compassion. But no way would he have condoned the act of abortion.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:42     Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:

I'm speaking more to universal good and evil (outside of what some people think/do). From your example, the Aztecs thought it was good, other folks not so much. So that is not a good example of things changing from good to bad. It was never good. In order for it to be good, it must be considered good by all. I hope that makes sense.


Wow you really are being obtuse. Can you explain, from that point of view, anything that is universally good, that all people have always thought was good forever? If you can't, then the idea that someone had to decide what is good is proven to be untrue.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:40     Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
I'm speaking more to universal good and evil (outside of what some people think/do). From your example, the Aztecs thought it was good, other folks not so much. So that is not a good example of things changing from good to bad. It was never good. In order for it to be good, it must be considered good by all. I hope that makes sense.


Like what?
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:39     Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know why we constantly indulge this troll. She pops up every few months with the exact same question, and it always boils down to the same thing. If there's no God to tell us what's right, we should naturally ignore morality and rape and kill one another. This time it's the Lawgiver. The last few times it's been Absolute Truth. She starts with the premise that there can be no morality without God, and no amount of patient explanations will ever satisfy her.

Here's a question for you, Crazy-I'd-Kill-You-All-If-God-Didn't-Tell-Me-Not-To-Lady (CIKYAIGDTMNTL): Who decided that 1+1=2? This is a mathematical truth. It's an Absolute Truth, if you will, that is true throughout the universe for all time. I'm sure your answer will be God, but why do we need God to tell us that 1+1=2? Even the first Neanderthal could pick up one rock and then a second rock, and realize that he now had two rocks. Why does anyone need to "decide" that 1+1 is going to equal 2?


Don't really know how to address your entire post, but just want to say that I'm the OP and I've never started a thread about atheism. I'm sure Jeff can confirm.


Try these:
Question for Atheists re 9/11
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/188867.page
Why don't you believe in God?
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/176618.page

You might want to make friends with the OP of those posts, you two have a lot in common. For the rest of us, perhaps we can agree that some people have a mental disconnect that prevents them from understanding that something can exist without having a creator. Morality, the universe, and math all exist. Nobody had to decide what they should contain.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:38     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
No, many Christians do what is pleasing to God by obeying his commandments. Has nothing to do with prayer, Bible study, etc. Just obeying his commandments. Which are really the same "laws" dictated by society.


So, they are not the same. The bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". But we don't kill witches.
Similarly:
Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee. - Leviticus 19:19
or:
When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening

You see, there is some stuff from the bible we follow, and some we reject. Many of our laws have no basis in religion at all.


FYI: Most Christians follow the New Testament. Many things mandated in the Old Testament were done away with with Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. He made the "ultimate sacrifice" and, as such, we are no longer bound by OT laws. Jewish people, who don't believe in Jesus, follow the OT.


And this is the part that is every bit as much human interpretation as an atheist consulting their own moral sense of right v wrong.


Can you explain? I'm having trouble following.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:37     Subject: Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.



Do you understand that good and evil are not constant - that different societies interpret them differently? So how is this compatible with one creator determing what they were?


Actually, they are. Can you name acts that were once totally good that are now totally evil?


Yes. Thousands. Slaughtering children to appease the rain god. Good for the Aztecs, now, not so much.


I said totally good (meaning for all mankind), not just for "some".


OK, so if not slaughtering babies is not "totally good", then what use is your universal morality? It is meaningless.


I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question.


Let me make it very simple. You said that good and evil are constant. I said that they are not. You said that I should name one thing that was totally good that is now bad. I gave an example. You said that it doesn't count, because not everyone thinks slaughtering children is good or bad. I pointed out that if your constant morality does not allow you to determine whether slaughtering children is good or bad, then it is not a very useful guide to life.

Do you understand now?


I'm speaking more to universal good and evil (outside of what some people think/do). From your example, the Aztecs thought it was good, other folks not so much. So that is not a good example of things changing from good to bad. It was never good. In order for it to be good, it must be considered good by all. I hope that makes sense.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:37     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.


Don't you understand that making up an imaginary god to justify your actions does not solve your good vs. evil problem?

Do you understand that people have justified very bad things on the basis of the authority of their god?

So saying "This is good because God told me" or "this is bad because God told me" does not get us any further, because "God" tells different people different things. In the Civil War he told the south that they were right and the North that they were right. He told the Aztecs to sacrifice children and the pope to cover up child abuse and move the abusers to fresh parishes.

So how then, when different people have different conceptions of right and wrong, do we determine what is right and wrong? We as a society engage in a debate about it, and set laws according to the outcome of the debate, based on our interests as a society for maximising the common good.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:36     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.


I think it's sad that s/he is unable to comprehend that one doesn't need an Authority to dictate whether an act is good or evil.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:34     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.


This is skirting on insulting. But the answer is, we get this authority from the same place religious folks do. We just don't make the error of giving it a proper noun.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:34     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
No, many Christians do what is pleasing to God by obeying his commandments. Has nothing to do with prayer, Bible study, etc. Just obeying his commandments. Which are really the same "laws" dictated by society.


So, they are not the same. The bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". But we don't kill witches.
Similarly:
Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee. - Leviticus 19:19
or:
When a woman has a discharge of blood, which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening

You see, there is some stuff from the bible we follow, and some we reject. Many of our laws have no basis in religion at all.


FYI: Most Christians follow the New Testament. Many things mandated in the Old Testament were done away with with Jesus' birth, death and resurrection. He made the "ultimate sacrifice" and, as such, we are no longer bound by OT laws. Jewish people, who don't believe in Jesus, follow the OT.


So what does the NT say about gays, abortion, out of wedlock births, and whether we have an obligation as a society to take care of the poor, through welfare, and healthcare, and so on? What does Jesus say about self-sufficiency vs. caring for the poorest in society? These are all very important issues to many Christians today. Please tell me what Jesus said about these issues.

As a mere atheist, my position would be to "personally cause the least amount of harm". So I don't interefere with the love between gay people, I don't condemn a child for being a bastard, I support the use of taxes to take care of poor people - and I reluctantly conclude that the pregnant woman has to judge whether an abortion is appropriate in her circumstances. I love the gays and the bastards and the societal "welfare queens" and "takers" and even the women who abort all equally. But I understand from my conservative, Christian friends that they don't necessarily agree with my position. Can you help clarify for me where Jesus stands on these issues?
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:33     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.


On my own authority.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:32     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Anonymous wrote:A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.


Since we're rational atheists (and because it sounds like the kind of stuff we see from our religious cousins on Facebook all the time) we're going to need a cite on this one.
Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:29     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
Christianity isn't the point of this thread. You don't have to be a Christian to believe in a higher power. Most (all?) major religions have central themes in common. Love each other. Be kind to each other. Take care of each other. Obey laws. Suffering can be good-we grow through loss and pain. Etc.......

I think we are all connected by a powerful force for good. You could call that power "God", but it's just a name. People (like Jesus) were placed on this earth to guide us towards spiritual growth and enlightenment. Once we finally get it, we'll join God (or whatever name you give it). It's evolution at a higher stage. Nothing more.

The atheist assumes no higher power. I've experienced too much to accept that at this stage in my life.

Anonymous
Post 05/15/2013 11:29     Subject: Re:Question for atheists: What governs how you live your life?
A well-known atheist blogger recently converted to Catholicism. Why? Because of this question:

On whose authority do I claim an act as good or evil?

This is also known as the argument from conscience.

This is the question every atheist ultimately needs to answer. No atheist on this thread has been able to do so yet.

That's why they are still able to be atheists.