Mississippi's test scores for a far larger share of the black population exceed that of California.

California has severe structural issues in what and how they teach.

This is now manifesting itself in the quality of its supposed top universities.

If you're an employer looking to recruit out of UCSD you have to wall off more than half of the students!

Anonymous wrote:This is actually what America is today. Not just bad at math, but no critical thinking abilities either.

My niece, a junior in public school, only has to read excerpts from novels. This is in her American Lit class. No full book reading required.The system is failing these kids.

Anonymous wrote:The reputational hit to the UC's will be generational.

UCSD really admitted students who could not do middle school math? I understand that it is not the most prestigious college in the UC system but that it is appalling.

it's a problem far beyond the UC's

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think retakes are the problem — if the student improves their grade on a retake, then they clearly learned the material. I’m not sure what was going on with the student cited in the OP.

My DS struggled in geometry and took every retake; by the final exam (which was cumulative and for which there was not a retake), he earned an A. I consider that mastery, which is the intended goal of education, no? (FWIW, he still got a B in the class, but I consider an A on the final a win).

Right, you consider the *grade on the test* the final win, and assume that means the student has shown mastery. The problem is, the current form of math pedagogy that emphasizes fake mastery (grades after infinite retakes of “tests”) vs a comprehensive system of repetition and recall. Instead of retaking tests (which are often too short to really be tests, and if retaken with the same problems, don’t demonstrate knowledge) kids should be doing MANY more problems sets as homework, studying for tests, then taking the tests.

Cognitive science knows this is how we learn (repetition and recall) but the dumb*ssss in charge of math education have decided that is not appropriate and here we are. don’t even get me started with the idea that actual direct instruction is bad, and “self paced” learning via computer. A complete disaster.

My kid would 100% end up like this girl if we had not realized in 7th grade that the schools were completely f’ing up math education. Now spending $1000s on Mathnasium and likely having to repeat algebra in 9th grade. he will never be a math genius but hopefully we get him to college with the ability to handle college calculus (or whatever the minimum math requirement is).

Anonymous wrote:These quotes stood out to me:

"we were granted so many opportunities to redo exams and homework"

and

"Do you know why you were given so many opportunities?

I’m sure it’s because they wanted us to not have F’s and D’s on our transcripts. It was just wanting us to be able to move on to the next grade. It never really was to hold us accountable. Instead of being like, hey, you only get one retake, it was just, you can retake it as many times as you like, to get a grade that you’re comfortable with."

wtf? how is this helping anyone? why are these kids getting compared to other kids who get zero chances to retake, much less unlimited, until they get the score they want?

It's helping admin brag about improved admission rates.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think retakes are the problem — if the student improves their grade on a retake, then they clearly learned the material. I’m not sure what was going on with the student cited in the OP.

My DS struggled in geometry and took every retake; by the final exam (which was cumulative and for which there was not a retake), he earned an A. I consider that mastery, which is the intended goal of education, no? (FWIW, he still got a B in the class, but I consider an A on the final a win).

you can improve your grade on a retake just by memorizing the correct answers. A retake does not necessarily imply different questions.

Good for your DS, btw.

Anonymous wrote:These quotes stood out to me:

"we were granted so many opportunities to redo exams and homework"

and

"Do you know why you were given so many opportunities?

I’m sure it’s because they wanted us to not have F’s and D’s on our transcripts. It was just wanting us to be able to move on to the next grade. It never really was to hold us accountable. Instead of being like, hey, you only get one retake, it was just, you can retake it as many times as you like, to get a grade that you’re comfortable with."

wtf? how is this helping anyone? why are these kids getting compared to other kids who get zero chances to retake, much less unlimited, until they get the score they want?

Zero retakes is also a terrible system, pedagogically. The purpose of a school is not to evaluate once, but to teach. Retakes unto mastery is the way to do it. Public schools that offer retakes without mastery are failing their students, but so are private schools that offer zero retakes and simply counsel out students who don’t get Bs the first time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is directly related to the earlier post about top tier privates. The reason "middling" kids get in to top colleges from these schools is that colleges know that they are prepared. Many public schools are a different story.

This.

My kid had a nearly 100% average in math in mcps middle school.

His private high school placement test had him repeat algebra freshman year…and we quickly got him a tutor to help him keep up.

Long story short: mcps math is a joke.

Long story short is that you’re a grossly negligent parent

dp.. how so? Is it not the school's responsibility to make sure the kid knows the content? Or is school just supposed to be a babysitter, and the parent is supposed to teach them at home?

-MCPS parent

You’re a parent and don’t think to keep tabs with how your kid is doing, what they’re learning, and supporting them? This is your fault.

I did not keep tabs on what my kids were doing. I was busy with work and they were busy with school.
1500 and 1570 SATs.
If you need to get tutors and handhold them thru high school, you will be doing that for them for the rest of their lives.

I don’t think this argument holds up for middle school and early years in high school. Being negligent isn’t fab.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get the issue. There are kids at all colleges who need remedial help - even the elite ones. If they're getting the help they need, then what is the problem? Oh, that they took spots from kids who had good math instruction in high school?

Because elite college admissions should go to qualified students otherwise these college aren’t elite anymore.

Who ever said UCSD was elite? It’s the third best public school in its state.

None of which are elite for undergraduate education. There are no elite public schools in any state because they aren't supposed to be elite. They are supposed to train students of their states for jobs like engineering, accounting, teaching, and health sciences. Anyone who believes that there aren't similar students in every state flagship is kidding themselves.

+1, this “elite” nonsense id do strange and a new (last 30 years or so) issue. Parents keep on wanting state schools to operate like Harvard- Harvard is Harvard and has its own issues with what parents consider a rigorous elite education.

State education is that: education for the representative students of a state. While there’s many grandiose ways state schools describe themselves, they’ve always been about broad opportunity and access in conjunction with rigorous, fair academics. You’re not gonna see grade inflation to the same extent at a state school, because they’re designed to have differentiation baked into the system. The issue here isn’t the “eliteness” of the UC system, but the changing standards of the California primary education system.

This is actually what America is today. Not just bad at math, but no critical thinking abilities either.

Anonymous wrote:The reputational hit to the UC's will be generational.

UCSD really admitted students who could not do middle school math? I understand that it is not the most prestigious college in the UC system but that it is appalling.

plus 1

These quotes stood out to me:

"we were granted so many opportunities to redo exams and homework"

and

"Do you know why you were given so many opportunities?

I’m sure it’s because they wanted us to not have F’s and D’s on our transcripts. It was just wanting us to be able to move on to the next grade. It never really was to hold us accountable. Instead of being like, hey, you only get one retake, it was just, you can retake it as many times as you like, to get a grade that you’re comfortable with."

wtf? how is this helping anyone? why are these kids getting compared to other kids who get zero chances to retake, much less unlimited, until they get the score they want?

Anonymous wrote:This is directly related to the earlier post about top tier privates. The reason "middling" kids get in to top colleges from these schools is that colleges know that they are prepared. Many public schools are a different story.

Where we are (McLean) the public schools are stronger for Math, private are stronger for liberal arts. The middling kids get into top colleges due to being able to pay full tuition and having parents who are mega donors. You need a happy go lucky and wealthy middle and bottom of the class at top colleges so you don't have a pressure cooker.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is directly related to the earlier post about top tier privates. The reason "middling" kids get in to top colleges from these schools is that colleges know that they are prepared. Many public schools are a different story.

This.

My kid had a nearly 100% average in math in mcps middle school.

His private high school placement test had him repeat algebra freshman year…and we quickly got him a tutor to help him keep up.

Long story short: mcps math is a joke.

Long story short is that you’re a grossly negligent parent

dp.. how so? Is it not the school's responsibility to make sure the kid knows the content? Or is school just supposed to be a babysitter, and the parent is supposed to teach them at home?

-MCPS parent

You’re a parent and don’t think to keep tabs with how your kid is doing, what they’re learning, and supporting them? This is your fault.

I did not keep tabs on what my kids were doing. I was busy with work and they were busy with school.
1500 and 1570 SATs.
If you need to get tutors and handhold them thru high school, you will be doing that for them for the rest of their lives.

I don’t think retakes are the problem — if the student improves their grade on a retake, then they clearly learned the material. I’m not sure what was going on with the student cited in the OP.

My DS struggled in geometry and took every retake; by the final exam (which was cumulative and for which there was not a retake), he earned an A. I consider that mastery, which is the intended goal of education, no? (FWIW, he still got a B in the class, but I consider an A on the final a win).