Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Why can’t you “go to many restaurants”? They don’t have to eat there, do they?
I have a friend who has a DD with eating challenges (only a few foods) and she just gives her what she brought for her when they go to restaurants with friends

PP you are responding to and my child is still completely disgusted by the sight of and smell of some foods and will literally vomit from having them in their proximity. They have also had full on panic attacks in challenging restaurants. They can go to many more than they could at 2! But it’s still incredibly stressful for the whole family and not something we take lightly. I am happy for your friend their child’s challenges are much more mild, but please don’t make the mid of thinking that approach works for everyone (and I hate to say it but restaurants start to push back on bringing outside food when the kid looks more like an adult, even if you explain the child’s difficulty in excruciating detail).

Anonymous wrote:Genes are very important. Some parents can do everything right and their kid still ends up being a train wreck. This is a little bit more likely to happen to affluent families that adopt because their adopted kids are often genetically average ( or below average) unlike the parents that tend to be genetically above average.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think easy kids necessarily make for successful adults, so I wouldn't judge too soon. I know I was a kid who challenged authority constantly and was not an easy personality. But I've become a very successful adult who now challenges authority by litigating. As an attorney it's made me quite successful and I enjoy it. With a professional outlet for that aspect of my personality, I have successful relationships with my husband and kids.

I know a lot of easy kids who it became directionless adults when they didn't have anyone telling them what to do anymore. They floundered and have really struggled as adults.

Then maybe they weren’t so easy. My kid is outwardly easy but his problem is that he doesn’t have any persistence or grit. Maybe it’s precisely what makes him easy. However it’s a struggle to make him work hard and be accountable. I can totally see him as directionless when he’s older.

pathetic and sad

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Perhaps you should look things up before you post. Hitler's family was normal for the time, and his mother was described as "devoted", unusual for the time. Father died when he was 13, mother when he was about 17. He was a product of society, personality and prejudice, not a lack of discipline or love at home.

There are many more of us who have experienced time with children who were neither neglected nor abused. I'm glad you only know a few kids who are "difficult", and I agree that your description is a combination of neglect and verbal/emotional abuse... however, that's not the norm for difficult kids. What is the norm is doing everything possible, as several PP have said, and coming up short of what would make the child appear to be "normal".

Anonymous wrote:"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

DP but it always makes me wonder if some kids just need harsher treatment than others. If he were to run 5 miles before school to get the bad energy out and was punished for every bad grade (in addition to all the therapy), would he stop getting in trouble?

There was a poster upthread who said she was well behaved because terrified of her mother. While this is unhealthy, a healthy dose of being scared might actually be good? Maybe?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have so many friends and colleagues who have kids with special needs of one kind or another and to varying degrees of special. This quantity is so much higher than when I was a kid - must be some environmental change.

Older dads — a lot is older dads.

Anonymous wrote:Genes are very important. Some parents can do everything right and their kid still ends up being a train wreck. This is a little bit more likely to happen to affluent families that adopt because their adopted kids are often genetically average ( or below average) unlike the parents that tend to be genetically above average.

Anonymous wrote:I have so many friends and colleagues who have kids with special needs of one kind or another and to varying degrees of special. This quantity is so much higher than when I was a kid - must be some environmental change.

Anonymous wrote:Ignore 12:58, she's a smug fool.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Why can’t you “go to many restaurants”? They don’t have to eat there, do they?
I have a friend who has a DD with eating challenges (only a few foods) and she just gives her what she brought for her when they go to restaurants with friends

PP you are responding to and my child is still completely disgusted by the sight of and smell of some foods and will literally vomit from having them in their proximity. They have also had full on panic attacks in challenging restaurants. They can go to many more than they could at 2! But it’s still incredibly stressful for the whole family and not something we take lightly. I am happy for your friend their child’s challenges are much more mild, but please don’t make the mid of thinking that approach works for everyone (and I hate to say it but restaurants start to push back on bringing outside food when the kid looks more like an adult, even if you explain the child’s difficulty in excruciating detail).

NP with a kid who has ARFID and I really feel you -- I have been there and it sucks because nobody understands and they all think it's just normal pickiness or that you just didn't offer enough food variety when your kid was a toddler or something.

That said, I do actually appreciate the PP's comment because I think the idea is that you don't have to do it the way other people do it. My kid also has those extreme food aversions to the point of gagging even at the sight or smell of food. But we'd look for any opening. So like for years we only went out to eat if it was one restaurant our kid could tolerate OR we could sit outside where our kid wouldn't have to smell the food and could even walk away from the table if necessary. Like for years that's what we did. So we'd eat out in the summer a lot more because there are lots of patios like that. With time and also lots of therapy that improved and now our kid can go in pretty much any restaurant, even though the range of foods she'll eat is still really narrow. I still bring food pretty much everywhere just to ensure she gets proper nutrition and we do staggered meals a lot (she'll eat her meal at home before we go out, and then DH and I will order food at the restaurant and she will just have a drink or maybe a small side or dessert).

The thing I had to get over was the judgment, because there's so much of it. But eventually I just hit a point where I accepted that no one was going to get it and lots of people would judge or think they knew better. Oh well. I live it so I know. My kid is never going to be an adventurous eater and who knows maybe we'll never have normal restaurant meals with her but we've found a way to make it work so we aren't shut ins for the rest of our lives and we can still travel. You deserve to have a life and not have to structure absolutely everything around your kids disability. I say that from experience and with empathy, not with judgment. I hope you find a way to have meals that are joyful and that nourish you. I know how hard it is when you are right in the thick of it and feel like your options are really restricted.

Look I know you are trying to be helpful, I KNOW you are, but it would be so great if you, as a fellow ARFID parent, could just hear that I am not asking for advice in this thread. I’m explaining how incredibly hard we have worked and how far my child has come even if it doesn’t look like it to you and my kid still looks “subpar” in this respect. We are still on our journey, and as I described we do go to restaurants and my child can go to more than they could previously, a lot more! This has been a huge goal for our whole family since this child was two, that we have worked one with a team of professionals, and I really don’t appreciate a lecturing post from someone who really doesn’t know our particular situation. We have to go VERY SLOWLY with increasing my child’s tolerance or it’s counter productive. I wish you well and I’m glad your child has a milder form of ARFID than mine.