Anonymous wrote:In my experience with 1 kid at a HYSP (a 1510), one other in at another Ivy (1490) and one just accepted to a top public (34 ACT) - all no hooks - 1500 and average ECs are fine. Factors that personally I think move the needle:

1) Full pay
2) Essays and EC story (doesn't need to be leadership experience but able to highlight definitive contributions, lessons / skills learned, links between activity choices and major interests all tied together in an interesting and authentic way)
3) Predictive profile (I strongly suspect there is AI being used that identify which students are likely to graduate on time, employable afterwards, and avoid protesting)

I agree that your DC needs a balance list with likely schools they actually like (and ideally ones that will provide decisions prior to winter break such as Fordham) but it's also okay to aim high.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

Faculty/staff is way more than a few kids. From my kid’s Philly area HS last year about 15 went to Penn and I think basically all had parents who worked there. That’s just one HS.

15 kids to Penn from any high school his exceedingly rare, and you know that. C'mon.

Perhaps it’s the school that most Penn faculty send their kids to, just like Hopkins in New Haven for Yale.

It’s public and no. You’re thinking faculty but Penn is the biggest employer in the region and there are tons of regular-type staff jobs with tuition benefits at Penn.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

10% athletes
15% legacy
10% first gen
10% low income
5% donor, faculty, celebrity, connection

That's half of the class gone.

So at Penn, all of the other 1250 are national award winners? Naw. Plenty of room for kids with regular good ECs and top stats.

So, half of the class are hooked.

Now consider feeder schools, where they draw the most "regular good".
Let's say about 3 unhooked kids each year go to Penn in RD, would qualify as a feeder school.
Let's say about only 200 schools like that in the country. That's 600 kids.

Then national award. National award is not limited to Olympia competition. But a national level EC. A big spike.
Let's say they got only 200 kids each year like that.

How many left? 400. How many non-feeder schools in the country? Thousands. Lottery ticket? Yes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

Faculty/staff is way more than a few kids. From my kid’s Philly area HS last year about 15 went to Penn and I think basically all had parents who worked there. That’s just one HS.

15 kids to Penn from any high school his exceedingly rare, and you know that. C'mon.

Perhaps it’s the school that most Penn faculty send their kids to, just like Hopkins in New Haven for Yale.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

Faculty/staff is way more than a few kids. From my kid’s Philly area HS last year about 15 went to Penn and I think basically all had parents who worked there. That’s just one HS.

15 kids to Penn from any high school his exceedingly rare, and you know that. C'mon.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

10% athletes
15% legacy
10% first gen
10% low income
5% donor, faculty, celebrity, connection

That's half of the class gone.

So at Penn, all of the other 1250 are national award winners? Naw. Plenty of room for kids with regular good ECs and top stats.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

Faculty/staff is way more than a few kids. From my kid’s Philly area HS last year about 15 went to Penn and I think basically all had parents who worked there. That’s just one HS.

15 kids to Penn from any high school his exceedingly rare, and you know that. C'mon.

Perhaps it’s the school that most Penn faculty send their kids to, just like Hopkins in New Haven for Yale.

Anonymous wrote:Kid is 1500 on his SATs, which after 3x is probably where it will stay. 4.0 Trying to build list and don't have counselor. Strong extracurriculars from area public but no crazy summer programs or sports that are recruitable. Interested in larger schools. Undecided for major. How did my chat gpt counselor do? Did any kids you know with these profiles get in? He liked his visit to Michigan and UVA. We love Wash U. Is Vandy & Duke or Penn even in play or a waste of application time.

🔴 REACH (1500 = still reach, but legit)

RD
University of Pennsylvania
~8–12%

Duke University
~10–15%


🟠 REACH / HIGH TARGET
Washington University in St. Louis
~30–35% (ED)
or
Vanderbilt University
~25–30% (ED)
---

University of Michigan
~40–50% (EA)

🟢 TARGET

EA
University of Virginia
~35–45%

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
~30–40% (OOS)

RD
Boston College
~45–55%

🟢 LIKELY / TARGET (1500 = strong)

University of Texas at Austin (EA)
~45–55% (OOS)

Villanova University (RD)
~60–70%

🟢 LIKELY (1500 = very strong)

University of Florida (EA)
~70–80%

University of Maryland (EA)
*~80%+

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We’ve looked at Naviance, and at least at our school the outcomes really do vary. I can’t quite understand why a student with a 1430 might get in while someone with a 1580 doesn’t.

I’m also curious how people define “amazing” extracurriculars. Are there concrete examples of what’s considered good versus great?

Thank you! And is anyone else navigating this without relying on a counselor?

I do alumni interviews for an Ivy and you have no idea how homogeneous files of strong students generally look. It's the 1500(+) SAT applicants who stand out in some way, and have a cohesive narrative, that have some chance at the high reaches. Especially in the DMV, where strong unhooked applicants are a dime a dozen and kids are competing against international Olympiad medalists, award-winning musicians, recruited athletes, published researchers, VIP kids etc. (great ECs) The competition is simply brutal. Good = leadership in school clubs, editing the school newspaper, long-term commitment to music, art, athletics, Scouts. Not likely to move the needle at a high reach but with strong essays, solid chance at a high target.

A 1430 kid is not getting into a T-10 unless hooked, usually FGLI and representing geographic diversity as well.

Everyone always says this, but Penn has 2500 freshman; they can't all be national award winners, especially when a lot of those award winners are at other top 10 schools.

2500 freshman
how many hooked? athletes, legacy, donor, faculty, FG LI, URM.
Philly local public school kids. How many?
Then there are feeder schools nation wide.
A small piece of pie for the MC UMC.

Legacy is pretty much irrelevant if not a big donor. Faculty is going to be a few kids each year at most. URM is not permitted anymore. FGLI I'll give you, but again, not a huge number. Athletes are probably the biggest hook, but that aside still leaves plenty of room for normal academic standouts.

Faculty/staff is way more than a few kids. From my kid’s Philly area HS last year about 15 went to Penn and I think basically all had parents who worked there. That’s just one HS.

15 kids to Penn from any high school his exceedingly rare, and you know that. C'mon.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child went TO because of her stats:

1290 SAT
3.5 gpa - school doesn’t weight
1 AP course but didn’t submit score

Applied for Biology

Great school. Great Essays. Great LORs. I would argue average ECs. No hook.

Accepted to Franklin and Marshall, UVM, St Mary’s, UPenn and waiting on RD with UofMaryland.


It’s all subjective. My son had better stats and was deferred from similar level schools, but admitted to College Park in CS.

I thought she was being way too ambitious and she proved me wrong.

U Penn or Penn State?

Yeah, no chance it's Penn. Zero.

Admissions this year have been weird. It’s not as much of a rat race when applications are declining.