Anonymous wrote:The anti-MIL posts have become so extreme to the point of being comical.

I agree. It almost seems like we need a separate MIL-focused forum.

Anonymous wrote:One of the things I pay attention to is what message do we send to our children about relationships and tolerating disrespectful behavior from others. Does your husband really want your kids to think it is okay to have this as a model for what they should tolerate for others in their lives? Ask your husband how he would feel if your children had partners or in-laws that withdrew affection like this. May help him see how destructive this behavior is. Really need him engaged on handling and not permitting/ tolerating this behavior from his mother.

This is what I’m stuck on when other PPs are saying to just ignore the behavior because you only have to deal with it in small doses. What abuse are we telling our daughters or sons that they should turn a blind eye to if it only happens occasionally? Emotional abuse is fine? Insane advice.

One of the things I pay attention to is what message do we send to our children about relationships and tolerating disrespectful behavior from others. Does your husband really want your kids to think it is okay to have this as a model for what they should tolerate for others in their lives? Ask your husband how he would feel if your children had partners or in-laws that withdrew affection like this. May help him see how destructive this behavior is. Really need him engaged on handling and not permitting/ tolerating this behavior from his mother.

OP, you and DH need to be more empowered. YOU two decide the pattern. Don't be so reactive to HER. She's obviously not a loving-close ordinary Grandma/family member ... and never will be, btw

Socialize at a neutral location (ideally) so you can leave when you want or if she vents or speaks hurtfully. You calmly with no drama end the visit. Have shorter, defined visits. 2 hrs together absolute max, probably 60 -90 min. Establish a rhythm. You decide. Not too ambitious but one you and DH can sustain without resentment. She either shows up to the invitation or she doesn't. When she is invited by you. If she doesn't behave, the visit is cut short.

Anonymous wrote:OP, my mom tried to go no contact last year. She’s impulsive and has minimal emotional control. If something upsets her, she cuts it off.

She’s single and in her 70s. She doesn’t talk to her family and has no close friends. I’m not going to leave her alone in the world, even if she is a bit crazy.

She has a very low tolerance for disagreement and she perceives slights that don’t exist.

Stop enabling her. She’s alone because she alienates people. She got to “alone” all on her own.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe just let her come and go as she pleases but don't give in to the drama. Don't change plans for her, don't make special plans for her, and don't act like it's a big deal if and when she shows up. She's seeking attention and to upend your lives . . . don't give her oxygen.

During her “re-entry”, though, she acts like a wounded animal, cowering in corners and just acting generally uneasy, like someone may yell at her. It creates an incredibly uncomfortable situation, and my kids are old enough to pick up on the awkwardness. I don’t want every holiday to be shrouded in this tension. It’s not fair to them, or to us.

—OP

So what. Let her act like a weirdo. Don’t let her make things tense.

OP, my mom tried to go no contact last year. She’s impulsive and has minimal emotional control. If something upsets her, she cuts it off.

She’s single and in her 70s. She doesn’t talk to her family and has no close friends. I’m not going to leave her alone in the world, even if she is a bit crazy.

She has a very low tolerance for disagreement and she perceives slights that don’t exist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe just let her come and go as she pleases but don't give in to the drama. Don't change plans for her, don't make special plans for her, and don't act like it's a big deal if and when she shows up. She's seeking attention and to upend your lives . . . don't give her oxygen.

During her “re-entry”, though, she acts like a wounded animal, cowering in corners and just acting generally uneasy, like someone may yell at her. It creates an incredibly uncomfortable situation, and my kids are old enough to pick up on the awkwardness. I don’t want every holiday to be shrouded in this tension. It’s not fair to them, or to us.

—OP

Let her come over and be awkward. You continue to do you, and you don't give in to her attention-seeking behavior. She wants you to argue with you, she wants to control your emotions, she wants you to ask her what's wrong. Don't.

+1

This is who she is. If your kids ask about it, just respond breezily, "oh, you know grandma, she's often weird when we haven't seen her in a while. Just leave her be" and go about your day.

But what does that look like when we are hosting just her? I feel obligated to sit with the family. What does “go about your day” look like in this instance, when she comes over (she’s local) and expects to celebrate the holiday? It feels rude to just leave the room, but I guess I don’t know what else to do!

—OP

Your MIL is local. She likely only wants to see/interact with her kid the DH. This stuff has been going on forever so your kids are irrelevant, and I children know it from interactions or lack thereof for their entire lives. Schedule the holiday visits for a specific time period - 4 pm she plops in a chair, 4:30 pm changes chairs to a table for the meal, by 5:15 relocates to chair 1. With young children you and DH get the 6 pm bath so she's alone on the chair. Can leave or wait to say bye bye after that.

Some have been dealing with the issue of local non participation type GP or no kids aunts etc for decades. Currently there's a local that does the sullen or tantrums. Overweight and tells all the slender and fit what to eat.

I'm the responder above. Here's my advice -
Just go to a restaurant for one of the Xmas meals. In public she has to behave somewhat.
Then you are busy the rest of the break, say ice skating, or going skiing. You just aren't available.

Well OP, your MIL is my mother.
Out of a sense of guilt and family loyalty, I kept up on the relationship. It sucked up a lot of my psychic energy to figure out her moods, when was a good time to visit, etc..
As my kids became tweens I started to have to pack up and leave earlier and earlier. Once I had to leave the night after we arrived. She would do things like slam the door on my child after child said good morning, or lock child out of the house. The targets were increasingly becoming her grandkids.
My husband basically ignored her and seldom set aside time for visits with her which used to offend me but not anymore. His family usually always had planned the holidays months in advance so my procrastinating mother couldn't eke in any time. We would get into fights about family time between his or mine for the holidays. I realize now that maybe her procrastination was a way to create last minute drama. I don't know. She was just such a huge source of psychic misery.
When my oldest child was college age, my mom really turned the victim narcissism on her and that's when I had to call it quits.
It's one thing to condition your own child to accept such behavior but another to expect to drag your grandchildren into the pattern too. Absolutely NO thanks, I wasn't going to enable that.

Anonymous wrote:You are focused on entirely the wrong thing here, which is why you are getting no sympathy. This should not be about your discomfort about the weird family member that sits in the corner and doesn’t interact with— that isn’t a real problem.

You should be focused on the fact that your husband has continued to engage in this tocis dynamic where his mom does something egregious (which you fascinatingly haven’t described while giving us excruciating detail about her sitting in a corner), he “confronts” her (with no description of what that looks like) and then she doesn’t talk to you guys for months (which may or may not involve her actively staying she needs a break). Focus on THIS and whether your husband is interested in changing any of that. If he does, the only person he can change is himself and he might want a third party therapist to help him think it through. If he doesn’t want to change any of this, just go about your business on Xmas day with your kids. Your husband can sit in the corner with her if he chooses to do so.

None of us here have a clue if your husband wants anything to change, but you need to follow his lead. This is his circus and monkeys. You can tell him that you just cannot listen to him agonize about mom every time he has a fight with her. This is the boundary you can set and point him back to a therapist if he needs someone to vent to.

I've been curious about all of this as well. Also, I find it interesting that she announces a time limit (a few months) when she cuts you off.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Been married nearly 20 years. My MIL has long-standing BPD-type behaviors, victim mentality, crying to manipulate, and a pattern of “discarding” my husband several times a year. DH has always had a distant, strained relationship with her, but he still tries to pretend things are “normal,” especially around holidays and birthdays.

This past summer, after one of their typical disagreements, she initiated no-contact with him, and by extension, with me and our kids. Then, right before our child’s birthday, she tried to come back and blamed us for not seeing the kids all summer. When that didn’t work, she cut us off again. That was my breaking point. You can’t repeatedly abandon your grandchildren and then complain that you didn’t get to see them.

Now she wants “in” again for Christmas. I’m done. I understand DH is conditioned to accept this cycle, but I’m not willing to let our kids be dragged into this cycle, or to think this is normal, or to tolerate the holiday tension and eggshell-walking anymore. If she chooses to disappear for months at a time, she doesn’t get to reappear at her convenience.

How do I talk to DH about this in a way that’s firm but fair? This is the third Christmas she’s pulled this. It’s also the second time she’s pulled this before one of our kids’ birthdays. I need to set a boundary, but I want to approach it constructively.

You said she likes to be around for holidays and birthdays. You said your husband likes to play normal for holidays/birthdays. Why not see her then? Ignore any gaslighting; what difference does it make? If your husband likes to play normal (and this is his normal; it’s not really playing) at these times, why do you have to “set a boundary” or do anything? Tell your kids grandma is flaky, but she’s doing the best you can; they’ll figure things out on their own. I don’t get why you need to assert some sort of power over this. And your poor husband caught between the two of you; why can’t he just have the relationship he already had with his mom before you came along?

As a daughter and mother, I refuse to agree that it’s normal to make a grand stand proclamation that you refuse to speak to your child for months at a time, 2-3 times a year. I simply can’t believe this is typical or healthy or normal!

—OP

OP, it's not normal. Look up "vulnerable narcissist." This is your MIL. It's mine, too. Married 20 years, and DH has finally reached his breaking point. Therapy is helpful in this situation b/c sometimes a person (like your DH) needs to hear from a third party that his mother's behavior is not normal, not healthy, and not something he needs to enable. Good luck, I know how hard this is.

I was listening to a podcast about family estrangement. One point was that therapists focus on the individual’s well being, not necessarily the whole family.

Can you remember which podcast?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Been married nearly 20 years. My MIL has long-standing BPD-type behaviors, victim mentality, crying to manipulate, and a pattern of “discarding” my husband several times a year. DH has always had a distant, strained relationship with her, but he still tries to pretend things are “normal,” especially around holidays and birthdays.

This past summer, after one of their typical disagreements, she initiated no-contact with him, and by extension, with me and our kids. Then, right before our child’s birthday, she tried to come back and blamed us for not seeing the kids all summer. When that didn’t work, she cut us off again. That was my breaking point. You can’t repeatedly abandon your grandchildren and then complain that you didn’t get to see them.

Now she wants “in” again for Christmas. I’m done. I understand DH is conditioned to accept this cycle, but I’m not willing to let our kids be dragged into this cycle, or to think this is normal, or to tolerate the holiday tension and eggshell-walking anymore. If she chooses to disappear for months at a time, she doesn’t get to reappear at her convenience.

How do I talk to DH about this in a way that’s firm but fair? This is the third Christmas she’s pulled this. It’s also the second time she’s pulled this before one of our kids’ birthdays. I need to set a boundary, but I want to approach it constructively.

You said she likes to be around for holidays and birthdays. You said your husband likes to play normal for holidays/birthdays. Why not see her then? Ignore any gaslighting; what difference does it make? If your husband likes to play normal (and this is his normal; it’s not really playing) at these times, why do you have to “set a boundary” or do anything? Tell your kids grandma is flaky, but she’s doing the best you can; they’ll figure things out on their own. I don’t get why you need to assert some sort of power over this. And your poor husband caught between the two of you; why can’t he just have the relationship he already had with his mom before you came along?

As a daughter and mother, I refuse to agree that it’s normal to make a grand stand proclamation that you refuse to speak to your child for months at a time, 2-3 times a year. I simply can’t believe this is typical or healthy or normal!

—OP

OP, it's not normal. Look up "vulnerable narcissist." This is your MIL. It's mine, too. Married 20 years, and DH has finally reached his breaking point. Therapy is helpful in this situation b/c sometimes a person (like your DH) needs to hear from a third party that his mother's behavior is not normal, not healthy, and not something he needs to enable. Good luck, I know how hard this is.

I was listening to a podcast about family estrangement. One point was that therapists focus on the individual’s well being, not necessarily the whole family.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Been married nearly 20 years. My MIL has long-standing BPD-type behaviors, victim mentality, crying to manipulate, and a pattern of “discarding” my husband several times a year. DH has always had a distant, strained relationship with her, but he still tries to pretend things are “normal,” especially around holidays and birthdays.

This past summer, after one of their typical disagreements, she initiated no-contact with him, and by extension, with me and our kids. Then, right before our child’s birthday, she tried to come back and blamed us for not seeing the kids all summer. When that didn’t work, she cut us off again. That was my breaking point. You can’t repeatedly abandon your grandchildren and then complain that you didn’t get to see them.

Now she wants “in” again for Christmas. I’m done. I understand DH is conditioned to accept this cycle, but I’m not willing to let our kids be dragged into this cycle, or to think this is normal, or to tolerate the holiday tension and eggshell-walking anymore. If she chooses to disappear for months at a time, she doesn’t get to reappear at her convenience.

How do I talk to DH about this in a way that’s firm but fair? This is the third Christmas she’s pulled this. It’s also the second time she’s pulled this before one of our kids’ birthdays. I need to set a boundary, but I want to approach it constructively.

You said she likes to be around for holidays and birthdays. You said your husband likes to play normal for holidays/birthdays. Why not see her then? Ignore any gaslighting; what difference does it make? If your husband likes to play normal (and this is his normal; it’s not really playing) at these times, why do you have to “set a boundary” or do anything? Tell your kids grandma is flaky, but she’s doing the best you can; they’ll figure things out on their own. I don’t get why you need to assert some sort of power over this. And your poor husband caught between the two of you; why can’t he just have the relationship he already had with his mom before you came along?

As a daughter and mother, I refuse to agree that it’s normal to make a grand stand proclamation that you refuse to speak to your child for months at a time, 2-3 times a year. I simply can’t believe this is typical or healthy or normal!

—OP

OP, it's not normal. Look up "vulnerable narcissist." This is your MIL. It's mine, too. Married 20 years, and DH has finally reached his breaking point. Therapy is helpful in this situation b/c sometimes a person (like your DH) needs to hear from a third party that his mother's behavior is not normal, not healthy, and not something he needs to enable. Good luck, I know how hard this is.

You are focused on entirely the wrong thing here, which is why you are getting no sympathy. This should not be about your discomfort about the weird family member that sits in the corner and doesn’t interact with— that isn’t a real problem.

You should be focused on the fact that your husband has continued to engage in this tocis dynamic where his mom does something egregious (which you fascinatingly haven’t described while giving us excruciating detail about her sitting in a corner), he “confronts” her (with no description of what that looks like) and then she doesn’t talk to you guys for months (which may or may not involve her actively staying she needs a break). Focus on THIS and whether your husband is interested in changing any of that. If he does, the only person he can change is himself and he might want a third party therapist to help him think it through. If he doesn’t want to change any of this, just go about your business on Xmas day with your kids. Your husband can sit in the corner with her if he chooses to do so.

None of us here have a clue if your husband wants anything to change, but you need to follow his lead. This is his circus and monkeys. You can tell him that you just cannot listen to him agonize about mom every time he has a fight with her. This is the boundary you can set and point him back to a therapist if he needs someone to vent to.