Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What bothers me is some of these “requirements” are a joke and don’t add value. Just made up stuff like we do to get into college. It shouldn’t be a requirement for medical school.

Shadowing? What exactly did the kid do? Mission trips? What did the kid actually learn. Sure they sound good but we know how these things really go down.

Shadowing: i have shadows. Some of them drop premed after shadowing. They hate blood and bodily functions. Best to establish that.
Mission trips in the context of med school apps are nothing like high school mission trips of the 00s. They encompass traveling with doctors (docs without borders or similar) learning and doing real 3rd world medical skills. These students come in more prepared than those who haven't. A kid who has done it is highly unlikely to be aiming for medicine for the $ or any other false reason.
Research, any science: evidence based medicine is the core of practice. Understanding how research is done is extremely important especially for anyone who wants to attend one of the T100 or so research-based MD schools.
Volunteering: domestic violence , food insecurity/homeless, nursing homes, addiction clinics: all part of the raw humanity of real medicine. You have to have evidence you can handle humans in their most desperate and unpleasant states.

Agree shadowing can give some better idea if this is what they really want to do...but do you really think it takes hundreds of shadowing hours to determine that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t decide if I should discourage or encourage medical school. I want to support their (hard earned) accomplishments but don’t want to lead them astray.

It's a rough job nowadays. Insurance companies (led by Medicare) dictate way too much with regard to patient care and the amount of time doctors have with patients is shrinking as we speak. Private equity is making it worse. Much worse. If you want to go to med school because you see it as a respectable (or impressive?) job with high pay, you might want to skip it -- it probably won't be worth it for you and there are easier ways to make money. If you are truly fascinated by the human body and how it works and can't see yourself happy doing anything but treating patients, it might be a good fit even with all the hassle.

What are these "easier ways to make money"?

Tech in a heartbeat. My kid is currently a junior and doing all of the things she needs to do to go to med school. My niece has multiple offers and will start med school in the fall.

I am in tech, I make 7 figures year in and year out. Given how smart both kids are I could have either of them making $500K by the time they are in their late 20's; it would not be a particularly difficult task.

Posters are correct the usual-suspect ivy+ schools with med centers on campus often have the most funding and opportunities for paid research.

However many other schools have plenty of resources! The most popular non-flagship/non-T20 private schools in our area of the country are Clemson and JMU. Both schools have detailed premed programs including several mentions of open-access clubs for the volunteering, paid clinical jobs available to students (phlebotomy, nurse assistant), and there are numerous paid research opportunites listed, bot work study and non.

TLDR do your homework, premeds but it is not that difficult to get premed reqs done at a wide variety of colleges. All of them have detailed websites and info on reddit as well though YMMV re reddit.

Anonymous wrote:What bothers me is some of these “requirements” are a joke and don’t add value. Just made up stuff like we do to get into college. It shouldn’t be a requirement for medical school.

Shadowing? What exactly did the kid do? Mission trips? What did the kid actually learn. Sure they sound good but we know how these things really go down.

Shadowing: i have shadows. Some of them drop premed after shadowing. They hate blood and bodily functions. Best to establish that.
Mission trips in the context of med school apps are nothing like high school mission trips of the 00s. They encompass traveling with doctors (docs without borders or similar) learning and doing real 3rd world medical skills. These students come in more prepared than those who haven't. A kid who has done it is highly unlikely to be aiming for medicine for the $ or any other false reason.
Research, any science: evidence based medicine is the core of practice. Understanding how research is done is extremely important especially for anyone who wants to attend one of the T100 or so research-based MD schools.
Volunteering: domestic violence , food insecurity/homeless, nursing homes, addiction clinics: all part of the raw humanity of real medicine. You have to have evidence you can handle humans in their most desperate and unpleasant states.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I can say is I agree with you! So many doctors educated abroad, but American kids with the academic qualifications for American medical schools are pushed aside because their college wasn’t physically located close enough to a hospital for them to get the volunteer hours. Absolutely insane choices by the medical profession. And then they wonder why they’re losing public trust.

If you at all thought you wanted to be a doctor/anything medical, you should pick an undergrad that has volunteer opportunities nearby (with 30-40 mins away).

Most schools have volunteer opportunities on campus and have lists and lists of premed clinical opportunities on the premed websites. It is not true that you have to be wealthy to do it: many do it during the semester! No premeds need to take summer classes, those are for grade re-do or spreading out courses. Kids should be able to get the grades the first time around. You can manage premed and spend 10-15hrs per week for the other stuff and get it all done without summer. Or you can decrease to 5hrs a week in the semester and use the summers. You can get a job as an EMT and get paid in the summer. Or a nurse assistant. There are hundreds and hundreds of paid research experiences for college kids, if the home college does not have funds to pay students for lab work with professors in summers. MCAT studying is done at night in the summer while working a full time job (medical or nonmedical) or in the semester in addition to a full course load, adequately using winter and spring breaks for study too. That is what every successful premed we know has done. Med schools want to see that you use your weekends and evenings to accomplish goals: they have to see you are ready for the sacrifice medicine brings. No summer work(paid or not) multiple summers in college is a red flag. It is false that you have to be rich to do it all.

What bothers me is some of these “requirements” are a joke and don’t add value. Just made up stuff like we do to get into college. It shouldn’t be a requirement for medical school.

Shadowing? What exactly did the kid do? Mission trips? What did the kid actually learn. Sure they sound good but we know how these things really go down.

And how are the undergrads getting to these opportunities 30-40 mins away?

Anonymous wrote:All I can say is I agree with you! So many doctors educated abroad, but American kids with the academic qualifications for American medical schools are pushed aside because their college wasn’t physically located close enough to a hospital for them to get the volunteer hours. Absolutely insane choices by the medical profession. And then they wonder why they’re losing public trust.

If you at all thought you wanted to be a doctor/anything medical, you should pick an undergrad that has volunteer opportunities nearby (with 30-40 mins away).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a family reunion recently where my cousins nice, bright hs senior was not only telling people (who asked about college plans) that they were pre-med but also that they were “going to go into trauma surgery.”

This is not a criticism of the teen (who is obviously just a kid) but I do think this dynamic of talking about being a pre-med and trauma surgeon in waiting, etc before you’ve taken orgo is part of the problem.

Kids feel like changing course (if orgo turns out to be insurmountable or they don’t get in two go rounds and aren’t willing to consider DO school) is a loss of standing (that they haven’t achieved yet but have been kind of getting on loan by talking about their plans) and that sucks!

Meh. When I was 6 I told everyone I was going to be a veterinarian. I'm not a veterinarian.

Yes, but if you were a college junior saying it (and saying it, ad nauseum) the dynamic would be different.

The college junior doesn't know what they don't know. They will figure out, once they get to med school, if they do, that they probably don't want to be a "trauma surgeon." Or that even if they do, that it is a very, very tough match that they probably won't make.

Like I said, I didn't become a vet, lol (good thing I didn't too, because that's a rough job). But I did become a lawyer. I went to law school fulling intending to do anti-death penalty work. I came out a tax attorney. It's fine to think you know what you want and shift gears later. That is part of being young. And a "college junior" is young.

I agree it’s very young and they don’t know what they don’t know. I guess my point is more that it would be nice if we would all take what kids (including clllege kids) say with a low key “great, that sounds good” and keep it moving attitude.

Because the kids ( being kids) say things and then their mom (usually) is often proud and mildly braggy which the kid picks up on and so feels more invested in the stated plan (which they have no idea if they are suited to or would like) so they double down and therefore mom and dad amp up the kudos and (good natured) pride in the prospective accomplishments, etc.

I just wish kids didn’t feel at the age of 20 or 21 it was some type of failing to say, you know what, on second thought maybe I’ll look into other options.

It’s been this way for generations. Nothing new here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kid who went to Ivy now in medical school.

It was NOT easy to get research positions.

I have kids at a T10 and an ivy currently, and I went to a different ivy. The current situation at their schools is anyone who wants research gets it. You just ask faculty in any basic sciences and if they do not have openings they know a lab who does. Med schools do not require that it is strictly medical research, it can be any rigorous science research. Many labs with profs are work-study. That is what I did 27 years ago: work study as a sophomore that led to summer job, paid, and eventually published. My alma mater has 10x the support for financial aid kids now, many more work study spots and other paid research that did not exist then. The clinical experience is much easier now: multiple EMT groups on campus and in the community, medical assistant roles in the hospital, all done during the semester. There are some trips that are funded by the school though I believe you can only do one per student. Some are spring or winter break, 9 days, but yield 75 hours of service and clinical experience.
There is no need to be wealthy to get the experience in fact many labs prioritize the work study kids as they should.

Hopefully you can imagine that this might not be the case for all schools, even Ivy.

And agree with PP…my kid needed to work in the summer for pay, so volunteering was limited.

Shadowing was a bit easier for her, but can imagine that could also be very difficult. Without connections, many of these “requirements” that seem easy, are not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should have 3 years of heavily focused undergrad followed by a year of a related medical experience (paid internship) and then med school.

And they need to let more kids into med school. We need more American-educated doctors.

Sigh. This was addressed above. It's not as simple as simply admitting more students. Could you pack more into the lecture halls? Sure (especially now that lots of students don't go to lecture, it's recorded and many watch it ... or plan to anyway ... later). But there simply are not enough rotation sites or residency sites. Medical training is a lot more than sitting in a class room.

Then why do we need so many foreign doctors? Why don’t we invest and make this career more feasible for Americans?

These foreign doctors are filling spots US doctors don’t want. Mainly hospitialists, internal medicine, and locums.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kid is doing a BS/MD program. I highly recommend this route, it's a huge relief.

+1. This needs to be emphasized. Parents of HS students interested in medicine: Look for direct admit programs!

They might actually be harder to get into than medical school and are going out of favor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:44% of applicants get a spot. Among those that don’t, some take a year to get more relevant experience, some go the DO route and some do Caribbean or hang it up.

The admission rate is higher than when I applied and to me, 44% admission (with other roads in for those who don’t get in their first go round) doesn’t seem too bad.

It’s stressful to the young adults going through the application process for sure but guess what else is stressful? Med school, residency, and a career in medicine!

Is a 44% admission rate for a highly sought after, respected, well paid job so shocking?

I agree 44 isn't bad and I think most reasonable people would agree with you. But that also means 56% of applicants have to reexam their paths after so many years working towards goal of becoming doctors. That, i think, is a daunting situation.

agree - and there is an untold number of applicants who don't even get as far as applying because medical school has become such a game of perfection. And with internships, research, shadowing, "mission trips" - it is becoming a game of perfection for the wealthy. I'm not sure this is how we make the best doctors.

Yes, I have an issue with how much unpaid or low-paid work and "experiences" are required. It's a game where wealthy parents (often physicians themselves) willing to subsidize puts you way ahead of the game. Not everyone can take summer classes, do nothing but study for MCAT, shadow for free instead of work, and take months-long medical mission trips.