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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

I read a thread on Reddit once where professors ranked IB students as the most well prepared (compared to AP and DE students). It made me think of DCUM. I think the rabid IB hatred is actually mostly in FCPS forum and mostly the same 1-2 posters (who will *always* bring up IB and how FCPS should scrap it in threads not even related to IB). You go to the college forum and parents of IB students seem pretty content with IB.

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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

They might love IB Diploma students, but the rest (majority) don't get much love. "Hatred" is the wrong term. Most of us under the reality that IB is problematic.

IB as it's currently offered in FCPS doesn't pass a cost-benefit test.

And the general assumption is that, if a school has IB, it must have been a school that FCPS decided was in trouble at some point.

Re FCPS, there were exceptions like Woodson and Robinson. (Woodson parents then pushed back vehemently and saved AP there.) IB was a 1970s through 00s fad for expanding college prep options across the nation.

But it was also a way to completely restructure the curriculum at schools then perceived to be in dire need of help to boost enrollment, test scores, etc. That gamble paid off dividends for Marshall.

Marshall's IB program is not very successful, if you look at the number of diplomas awarded.

Marshall is much smaller than Robinson, but it’s true Robinson’s program is more successful. For 2023-24 school year, it looks like 13% of Marshall seniors got an IB diploma while 17% got one at Robinson. Annandale was the only other school to crack 10%. All other IB schools have less than 10% of students achieving an IB diploma.

I know a lot of highly motivated and successful Marshall kids who just decided to skip the diploma because the requirements limit types of electives, etc esp. during Junior and Senior years. Marshall has academy classes in CS, engineering, etc that are more appealing to some STEM students. Getting a diploma doesn’t necessarily mean better college acceptance results but the IB writing really helps prepare students for college.

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Anonymous wrote:SLHS is affluent???

Compared to the average American high school, I'd bet it is. Living in this area can skew one's perception of what's normal/average.

Exactly this.

Yes. But, I'm not sure the way you think it does.

Yes. There are affluent kids at South Lakes. But, with a 35% FARMS rate, I'd hardly call it affluent.

But, it likely mirrors FCPS.

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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

They might love IB Diploma students, but the rest (majority) don't get much love. "Hatred" is the wrong term. Most of us under the reality that IB is problematic.

IB as it's currently offered in FCPS doesn't pass a cost-benefit test.

And the general assumption is that, if a school has IB, it must have been a school that FCPS decided was in trouble at some point.

Re FCPS, there were exceptions like Woodson and Robinson. (Woodson parents then pushed back vehemently and saved AP there.) IB was a 1970s through 00s fad for expanding college prep options across the nation.

But it was also a way to completely restructure the curriculum at schools then perceived to be in dire need of help to boost enrollment, test scores, etc. That gamble paid off dividends for Marshall.

Marshall's IB program is not very successful, if you look at the number of diplomas awarded.

Marshall is much smaller than Robinson, but it’s true Robinson’s program is more successful. For 2023-24 school year, it looks like 13% of Marshall seniors got an IB diploma while 17% got one at Robinson. Annandale was the only other school to crack 10%. All other IB schools have less than 10% of students achieving an IB diploma.

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Anonymous wrote:DS attends one of the 4th tier, low prestige schools. The school sent lots of kids to UVA, VT, W&M this year, as they do every year, plus a number get into Ivies, MIT, CMU, UCLA, Berkeley, Michigan, Duke, Hopkins, etc.

So your “prestige” rankings are meaningless. Or maybe they even work against you, if you believe colleges have “quotas” from each high school.

Nobody cares what high school you went to. And a few years after you graduate from college, nobody will care what college you went to.

Capable students from below average HS’s CAN do well. The college acceptances at ACHS for example are often really strong.

The problems are as follows: 1, this is not as much an issue in FCPS as our schools are larger. But some smaller, low income HS will not be able to offer many, if any, AP classes (or IB or whatever). This leaves students at a huge disadvantage when it comes to college readiness. They simply aren’t ready for a demanding college class having had only general education math/English up to what you might be tested on in a standardized state test. 2, people worry about what their kids might be exposed to in terms of fights and behavior at a lower SES school. 3, adults at low SES schools perpetuate a more restrictive, punitive environment on the kids. There is little to no trust from adults to students. There are more punishments and the school environment feels very negative. 4, a kid who is borderline - intelligent and capable but vulnerable to a “bad crowd,” and there are lots of teens like this - will be lifted up by a higher income, higher education, rule following peer group, but potentially brought down by low achievers and peers/parents who don’t emphasize attendance and achievement. Not as much an issue if your kid is more self-motivated, but not all kids are, some need more help to be kept on the straight and narrow as impressionable teens.

Obviously a really smart kid can stand out a lot at a lower SES HS. But students who are just average or even “above average” good students will fall through the cracks in a big way because the admin’s emphasis will be on the larger population of at risk kids.

A review of the numbers transferring out of some of some of the lower performing schools would indicate that a much fuller schedule of classes could be offered if FCPS eliminated IB.
A simple step that could lead to a solution. It could also solve problems of low enrollment in some schools.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the county keeps two different programs (IB and AP) so parents can freely move their kids to what they perceive to be better schools. It can be from AP to IB or IB to AP. That has to be the only reason FCPS keeps both.

I'm beginning to think you are correct. It seems so obvious that the right thing to do would be to eliminate IB. Save money and keep kids in boundary.

And, because it screams common sense, our SB will never do it.

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Anonymous wrote:SLHS is affluent???

Compared to the average American high school, I'd bet it is. Living in this area can skew one's perception of what's normal/average.

Exactly this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SLHS is affluent???

Compared to the average American high school, I'd bet it is. Living in this area can skew one's perception of what's normal/average.

Anonymous wrote:SLHS is affluent???

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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

They might love IB Diploma students, but the rest (majority) don't get much love. "Hatred" is the wrong term. Most of us under the reality that IB is problematic.

IB as it's currently offered in FCPS doesn't pass a cost-benefit test.

Cost-benefit for who? It definitely benefits the kids.

If you’re talking about “cost to the county” then I suggest there are lots of more significant costs in a $3.7b budget.

If the IB teachers weren’t teaching IB, would they all be fired? Big savings, yay! Or would they be doing something else? No savings, boo! The latter seems more probable.

The teachers can teach AP and other courses. We don’t need to be paying stand-alone “IB coordinators” who aren’t teaching kids.

What is that, eight employees out of 40,000? GMAFB. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Why on earth would FCPS pay for 8(!!!) IB coordinators?

Fewer than 500 FCPS stidents earn and IB diploma. That is roughly 60 students per one FCPS IB employee. High school teachers have well over 150 students per teacher, and growing next year.

What a huge, colossal waist of money.

At most, FCPS only need 2-3 IB coordinators for the entire district.

FCPS uniquely used IB to stem middle class flight—25 years ago it was white flight—from schools perceived to be failing or in danger of closing. Hence the plethora of schools and coordinators. Yes it is very expensive.

It was not designed as a program for a select group of highly motivated IB diploma bound students—the paradigm at other school districts that introduced IB with selective admissions.

It’s the law of unintended consequences. FCPS wanted to give declining schools something “special” and ended up further stigmatizing them.

AP is a much better advanced program for most students, and that’s why the real top tier in FCPS consists entirely of AP or AP-plus schools: TJ, Langley, Oakton, McLean, Madison, Woodson, and Chantilly.

What is “AP-plus”?

Courses that are taught at a higher level than a standard AP class. Common at TJ, and generally limited to some advanced math classes at other AP schools.

OMG. Just admit it. Those kids started AP at age 6. If your kid isn’t in AP by 8, they are are doomed to live off their trust funds without supplemental income as an underwater basket weaver .

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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

They might love IB Diploma students, but the rest (majority) don't get much love. "Hatred" is the wrong term. Most of us under the reality that IB is problematic.

IB as it's currently offered in FCPS doesn't pass a cost-benefit test.

Cost-benefit for who? It definitely benefits the kids.

If you’re talking about “cost to the county” then I suggest there are lots of more significant costs in a $3.7b budget.

If the IB teachers weren’t teaching IB, would they all be fired? Big savings, yay! Or would they be doing something else? No savings, boo! The latter seems more probable.

The teachers can teach AP and other courses. We don’t need to be paying stand-alone “IB coordinators” who aren’t teaching kids.

What is that, eight employees out of 40,000? GMAFB. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Why on earth would FCPS pay for 8(!!!) IB coordinators?

Fewer than 500 FCPS stidents earn and IB diploma. That is roughly 60 students per one FCPS IB employee. High school teachers have well over 150 students per teacher, and growing next year.

What a huge, colossal waist of money.

At most, FCPS only need 2-3 IB coordinators for the entire district.

FCPS uniquely used IB to stem middle class flight—25 years ago it was white flight—from schools perceived to be failing or in danger of closing. Hence the plethora of schools and coordinators. Yes it is very expensive.

It was not designed as a program for a select group of highly motivated IB diploma bound students—the paradigm at other school districts that introduced IB with selective admissions.

It’s the law of unintended consequences. FCPS wanted to give declining schools something “special” and ended up further stigmatizing them.

AP is a much better advanced program for most students, and that’s why the real top tier in FCPS consists entirely of AP or AP-plus schools: TJ, Langley, Oakton, McLean, Madison, Woodson, and Chantilly.

What is “AP-plus”?

Courses that are taught at a higher level than a standard AP class. Common at TJ, and generally limited to some advanced math classes at other AP schools.

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Anonymous wrote:Tier 1:
1. TJ
2. Langley
3. McLean
4. Oakton
5. Marshall

Tier 2:
6. Madison
7. Woodson
8. Chantilly
9. West Springfield
10. Robinson

Tier 3:
11. Lake Braddock
12. Centreville
13. Fairfax
14. Westfield
15. South County

Other/tier 4:
16. South Lakes
17. Hayfield
18. Annandale
19. Falls Church
20. Justice
21. Herndon
22. West Potomac
23. Lewis
24. Mount Vernon

FCPS is FCPS....some are whiter but they are all FCPS

There are only 3 FCPS high schools that are majority white. Madison, Robinson and Langley. Langley is hoovering around 50%, so in a few years only Madison and Robinson will be majority white. The rest are majority minority. Focusing on race like that is so strange given how diverse this area is and how intertwined the schools and neighborhoods are.

Langley became majority minority in October 2024 and remains so now.

Not possible. All we hear in these forums is that Langley families are “Lily White racists”. Now you’re telling us it’s a majority minority school?

Seems like the social justice warriors are full of $hit.

The Asian enrollment at Langley has skyrocketed in recent years. These are affluent families.

But, Langley is no longer majority White. Cooper also has a lower percentage of White kids than Langley, so that’s going to be the case going forward as well.

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Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

They might love IB Diploma students, but the rest (majority) don't get much love. "Hatred" is the wrong term. Most of us under the reality that IB is problematic.

IB as it's currently offered in FCPS doesn't pass a cost-benefit test.

Cost-benefit for who? It definitely benefits the kids.

If you’re talking about “cost to the county” then I suggest there are lots of more significant costs in a $3.7b budget.

If the IB teachers weren’t teaching IB, would they all be fired? Big savings, yay! Or would they be doing something else? No savings, boo! The latter seems more probable.

The teachers can teach AP and other courses. We don’t need to be paying stand-alone “IB coordinators” who aren’t teaching kids.

What is that, eight employees out of 40,000? GMAFB. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Why on earth would FCPS pay for 8(!!!) IB coordinators?

Fewer than 500 FCPS stidents earn and IB diploma. That is roughly 60 students per one FCPS IB employee. High school teachers have well over 150 students per teacher, and growing next year.

What a huge, colossal waist of money.

At most, FCPS only need 2-3 IB coordinators for the entire district.

FCPS uniquely used IB to stem middle class flight—25 years ago it was white flight—from schools perceived to be failing or in danger of closing. Hence the plethora of schools and coordinators. Yes it is very expensive.

It was not designed as a program for a select group of highly motivated IB diploma bound students—the paradigm at other school districts that introduced IB with selective admissions.

It’s the law of unintended consequences. FCPS wanted to give declining schools something “special” and ended up further stigmatizing them.

AP is a much better advanced program for most students, and that’s why the real top tier in FCPS consists entirely of AP or AP-plus schools: TJ, Langley, Oakton, McLean, Madison, Woodson, and Chantilly.

What is “AP-plus”?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think has to do a lot more some people trying to avoid schools with high FARMS and URM rates. This, of course, happens all over the US, and not surprisingly, in many countries in the Americas and Europe.

Right. South Lakes is mostly affluent and white, but it has more low income students than Lake Braddock for example, so it is perceived to be inferior.

South lakes is inferior because of IB.

"Inferior" according to the DCUMers who have an irrational hatred of IB.

Not inferior according to the UVA and W&M admissions officers who love IB students.

They might love IB Diploma students, but the rest (majority) don't get much love. "Hatred" is the wrong term. Most of us under the reality that IB is problematic.

IB as it's currently offered in FCPS doesn't pass a cost-benefit test.

And the general assumption is that, if a school has IB, it must have been a school that FCPS decided was in trouble at some point.

Re FCPS, there were exceptions like Woodson and Robinson. (Woodson parents then pushed back vehemently and saved AP there.) IB was a 1970s through 00s fad for expanding college prep options across the nation.

But it was also a way to completely restructure the curriculum at schools then perceived to be in dire need of help to boost enrollment, test scores, etc. That gamble paid off dividends for Marshall.

Marshall's IB program is not very successful, if you look at the number of diplomas awarded.