Anonymous wrote:The truth is that fewer and fewer of the most highly competitive colleges give credit for AP or IBD work in this century. Kids are probably better off focusing on what they're actually learning in high school than the prospect of getting college credit to save you some dough on tuition. AP curriculum has its own shortcomings. IBD language exams are much tougher to ace than AP language exams. There's no multiple choice with IBD and the exams stress advanced speaking and listening skills to a much greater extent than AP (because it's a European curriculum). If you want your kid to score high on an IBD language exam, even at the SL, you probably need to ensure that they land in full immersion environments for weeks during high school summers. If you don't speak the language consistently at home, plan ahead, save up, pay.

IB and AP foreign language exams have similar format, with multiple choice, essay, and listening and speaking components.

Anonymous wrote:Come on, you're really splitting hairs here, given that far more MCPS students take advanced humanities and IBD language than Maths AA HL. The toughest IBD math is OK and there's considerable merit to Diploma studies for hundreds of high performers in the county.

Top math students in IB take Calc BC as the first year of IB Math HL anyway.

Even MIT doesn't use epsilon-delta in its definition of limit or proof of trig derivatives.

https://youtu.be/kCPVBl953eY?si=Qg67lEG7iQpkd74H
Lec 1-3

Calculus, whether it's IB, AP, or MIT, is a different class from Real Analysis

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

The proof is only 5 minutes if you already introduced the delta epsilon formal definition of a limit. With absolute certainty that part is not in the IB curriculum.

Epsilon-delta is specifically excluded from AP calculus

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/ap-calculus-ab-bc-course-and-exam-description-errata-sheet.pdf

Anyway, it doesn't matter. By any reasonable engineering (non pure math) standard, epsilon delta doesn't matter. Even Liebniz and Newton didn't need episilon-delta to prove anything.
Insisting on epsilon-delta for well-behaved normal functions is just fetishism.

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

Why are you solely focused on math? Most high level IB courses are not math nor do they have any review components. If the kid is learning more and enjoys the subject then they are happy to be in the second year of the course. My child loves the HL history class for example. They are not “missing out” on any of the other history courses because they are in the one they want.

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Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

With AP credit, a student can take one fewer semester-class each year and still graduate on time. It's an insurance policy for students who can't keep up with the MIT workload.

The VAST majority of students taking AP classes will not go to MIT. Why use this school as an example?

Come on, you're really splitting hairs here, given that far more MCPS students take advanced humanities and IBD language than Maths AA HL. The toughest IBD math is OK and there's considerable merit to Diploma studies for hundreds of high performers in the county.

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

The proof is only 5 minutes if you already introduced the delta epsilon formal definition of a limit. With absolute certainty that part is not in the IB curriculum.

The truth is that fewer and fewer of the most highly competitive colleges give credit for AP or IBD work in this century. Kids are probably better off focusing on what they're actually learning in high school than the prospect of getting college credit to save you some dough on tuition. AP curriculum has its own shortcomings. IBD language exams are much tougher to ace than AP language exams. There's no multiple choice with IBD and the exams stress advanced speaking and listening skills to a much greater extent than AP (because it's a European curriculum). If you want your kid to score high on an IBD language exam, even at the SL, you probably need to ensure that they land in full immersion environments for weeks during high school summers. If you don't speak the language consistently at home, plan ahead, save up, pay.

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

That depends on the local high school and teacher. College board gives a lot more latitude on course content and organization than IB. You don’t need to teach a prescribed syllabus, you only need to pass the course audit. Magnets generally teach the real deal college level.

Two semesters for Calculus 1 and 2 is standard, that wouldn’t be considered crammed. Supposedly AP is for students that can handle college classes in high school, not for ones that need a watered down, in between, course version. The truth is that it varies, that’s why we have AP Calculus AB, which is about 3/4 of Calculus BC, or AP Statistics which is taught over one year in high school but over one semester in college. The redeeming quality is that the AP classes align well with college classes and its easy to decide what you’ve mastered and what to take next.

IB HL AA suffers from the same shortcomings and more, not really a college class, but a mix of advanced and basic topics put together under the same label. Sometimes you see it getting credit for a combination of Calculus 1 and/or Statistics, but it’s not comparable with either. Occasionally you see people jumping straight into Multivariable after HL AA which is ill advised.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

With AP credit, a student can take one fewer semester-class each year and still graduate on time. It's an insurance policy for students who can't keep up with the MIT workload.

There are also programs for Masters degree right after the Bachelor’s in one year by taking graduate level courses. Some students choose to use the AP credit for electives so they can get their Bachelor and Master degrees within four years, which in my view is the best use of non-restricted AP credit. You can use up to 48 credits, but since MIT doesn’t give credit to math and science APs it pays to take APs in humanities, social sciences and foreign language. You only need five APs to cover the non restricted electives, which could be a combination English, Spanish, History and the Capstone. Since many MIT students are not that strong in humanities, it may be easier for them to do the capstone if they choose a math or science topic, compared to for example AP English Literature.

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

Link to the syllabus of IB Math HL. They don’t teach a single theorem in Calculus, even the fundamental theorem of Calculus is listed as “Enrichment”. You can also see that only 55 hours of teaching are dedicated to Calculus topics.

https://holyheart.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Mathematics-Analysis-and-Approaches-Guide-first-assessment-2021.pdf

A list of Calculus theorems taught in AP:
Squeeze Theorem
Intermediate Value Theorem
Mean Value Theorem
Extreme Value Theorem
Fundamental Theorem of Calculus

Theorems and proofs are a fundamental part of teaching mathematics. They are not really helpful for the test, but provide an understanding on the why and how things work the way they do. It also shows the mindset of the teaching, do you prove L’Hopital and differentiation rules or just give them as a recipe to follow, aka rote memorization and teaching to the test, accusations that are often used by IB cheerleaders to characterize AP classes.

Even community college calculus is better than what’s in IB AA Math. They can be hit and miss, but some that go even beyond the AP curriculum although the homework, exams and grading tend to be easier.

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Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

With AP credit, a student can take one fewer semester-class each year and still graduate on time. It's an insurance policy for students who can't keep up with the MIT workload.

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Anonymous wrote:My sophomore is thinking of taking IB program. She does great in her AP classes and is getting A's and is ok with the workload but we are worried if she takes IB the intensity may be too much. All of her friends are doing it and she mentions it gives a great bump for college acceptances. Curious if anyone would share their experience. Thanks!

The IB’s great bump for college acceptance is a myth, same as the supposed superiority for writing in IB compared to AP. I’ve never seen any independent evidence to support these claims.

The problem with IB is that it’s really light on actual classes, only 6 over two years, to end up with a shaky general knowledge foundation. In exchange you get busywork classes like Theory of Knowledge, “extracurricular” activities etc. When people extol the “analysis” and “critical thinking” in IB, it’s just to mask the lack of breadth and depth in the curriculum.

A comparable schedule for an AP student would be 5-8 AP classes plus a few regular ones. If you’re careful with your choices you can get a solid preparation in either sciences and humanities because it’s a la carte, so you can align the coursework with your interests.

AP is different than IB in terms of writing. All IB classes, even STEM, require a lot of analytical writing. AP classes not so much. The amount of writing is different between the two.

That said, you can indeed get a solid education with taking just AP classes.

+1. You can do well with either and one might be better than another for a given kid but to suggest that IB lacks depth or gives you a shaky foundation is just dumb (as in do you work for the College Board dumb)

The point is in IB you don’t get enough breadth and depth from the number of classes you take. Is one single humanities class enough preparation if you’re interested in this area? I’m doubtful.

Supposedly there’s more “analytical writing” in IB. What does that even mean? There’s less of it in AP, is that teacher dependent, built in the curriculum? Posters in this thread make a lot of assertions that don’t stand even the most cursory scrutiny.

Arguing that IB lacks depth because some of its classes require 2 years is a good example of an assertion that doesn’t stand the most cursory scrutiny.

Lets see:

Two year IB Math HL AA gets the same college credit as the one year AP Calculus BC

Two year IB HL Physics gets the same college credit as the one year AP Physics C

Two year IB HL Chemistry gets the same college credit as the one year AP Chemistry

Hopefully you see the pattern. That’s true for all HL classes compared to the AP counterparts, humanities included.

Interpret this how you’d like, but to me it looks like IB HL classes are a hybrid of slow paced college classes. Doesn’t exactly inspire depth to be honest. If you’re relying on the IB courses alone over two years in the diploma program, you’re stuck with two HL classes (ie the slow paced college level classes) and four SL classes, roughly the equivalent of regular high school classes. Thats six classes in two years!

That’s the problem with one size fits all approaches that IB is modeled on, they can’t be too rigorous because they risk loosing enrollment. They can’t be too much like regular classes, because there’s no incentive to sign up. In the end IB is trying to strike a balance and set itself apart through other features, TOK, EE, “analytical writing” etc. of dubious benefit to the students.

IB is an international standard, used for university admissions all over the world. It isn’t designed to align with typical American course sequences like AP is.

I don’t disagree with what you said. I only take issue with the IB cheerleaders that claim IB is the pinnacle of high school education when it’s far from it. Classes are slower paced compared to college, for what is worth some students may need and benefit from it, some won’t.

AP’s are designed as college classes, not typical American college classes. AP Calculus has the same syllabus as an American, European or any other university in the world. IB on the other hand is not. Half of it is review material of high school math, which is why is taught over two years.

You are just making stuff up now. Tbh neither IB nor AP is equivalent to a top college class. Plenty of students find that out when they get to college.

Leaving that aside, inferring that receiving the same credit for HL IB and AP classes means that the classes are equivalent and therefore HL IB goes at a slower pace is just something you made up in your head.

Finally, if it matters, plenty of colleges give credit for SL (1 year) IB classes.

I meant the slow pace in the IB class is due to spending time to review high school topics. Top students students don’t need to review linear equations and quadratics, and would benefit more from going straight into calculus topics.

It matters how colleges view these advanced classes in relation to their own, that’s a proxy for rigor.

Besides that, there’s the opportunity cost for the student. If you spend two years in the HL class, then you don’t have room in your schedule for other classes that might be of interest.

I tend to agree that IB may not be the best path for math or possibly even for STEM generally but it’s very possible to do IB diploma and AP math.

Also if you are just concerned about the *number* of topics covered in a class then I agree AP is probably better for you than IB but that doesn’t mean AP is more rigorous (or better prep for college or of more interest to college admissions officers).

It depends what you mean by rigorous and the evidence is in the finer details. Contrary to what has been said in this thread to me it seems that IB AA teaches more to the test than BC. At least in the AP course there’s some effort to go over fundamental theorems in calculus with a modicum of proofs. Examples are Intermediate Value, Mean Value, Fundamental Theorems of Calculus etc. which are either absent or presented in the IB class more like a recipe to follow because there’s simply no time to go in depth. When you have a few instruction hours for limits you’re not discussing the squeeze theorem and as a consequence you won’t prove the derivatives of trigonometric functions, you’re just going to apply the formula being shown in class.

I’m very skeptical that the supposed depth of IB curriculum has any substance at least in math. This being said I’m sure plenty of kids can be successful in stem majors with this background, but given the choice I’d rather go with AP.

Do you have any basics for your claims?

The squeeze theorem takes 5 minutes to demonstrate.

http://educ.jmu.edu/~ohmx/squeeze_proof.pdf



Calc BC crams 2 semesters of college courses into one HS year, so obviously it can only do so superficially without proving the theorems, right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any AP courses that require a research paper, with elements like cited references and conformance with a specific style guide?

I know we wrote several in my own AP English class eons ago, before it was split into Lang and Lit, but even then it wasn’t a requirement for the AP course—we did it because the school system’s curriculum dictated it. The College Board never saw them.

But even back then, we didn't write research papers in AP history classes, just memorized facts and drilled endlessly on how to tick all the boxes and hit all the keywords in our exam essays. Similarly, the AP history classes my kid took in 9th and 10th didn’t require anything close to what they wrote in IB history for the IA.

So are there any APs that *do* require something like a research paper, something that might prep them for their college coursework? Maybe AP Seminar? (Not sure I have that name right— it’s not offered at my kids’ school.)

There is AP Capstone Diploma that consists of AP Seminar (1st year, where you learn how to research and analyze a topic, and AP Research (2nd year where you write a 4000-5000 word paper). You also need to pass four AP exams to get the Diploma. It seems to emulate the IB diploma framework with AP courses.

It’s not that rare, likely depends on the local schools, about 60k students take Seminar each year, and that’s roughly comparable with AP Computer Science A or the number of students taking the IB Diploma. A large fraction of students don’t seem to follow through, because only 25k students take AP Research, still a significant number.

College credit wise, as an example, MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to the AP Seminar and AP Research with scores of 5, but no credit to the IB Diploma.

MIT currently gives the same 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities HL IB course.

On the other hand I’m not really sure what the point of using AP/IB credits at MIT is— I guess it lets you graduate while taking fewer classes but I’m not sure that’s generally a good thing.

You need to read more carefully. MIT gives 9 unrestricted credits to any Humanities and social science classes for IB HL and AP courses passed with maximum scores and they specifically include the AP Capstone courses. Not super important but IB Diploma work like extended essays doesn’t get any credit even when it’s fairly close to the AP content.

Most students use unrestricted credit to get out of general requirements, you still take a full load, but some people would rather take a stem class at MIT and use the credit to fulfill other degree requirements.

So your argument literally was just comparing the extended essay to the AP class that was created to mimic the extended essay? That is dumb, not least because extended essay is barely considered a class for IB purposes (maybe it’s a half credit class?). Not sure what “general requirements” you get out of either because AP doesn’t count for the hass distribution requirements.

Somebody asked if there’s anything in AP comparable to the extended essay and it was worth mentioning that’s it’s possible to get college credit for that work and gave MIT as an example. Is MIT is dumb for giving credit for it? Doesn’t matter, they just do. Most schools don’t, a few ones do like CalStateSLO, UC Santa Cuz give some credit or a way to fulfill writing requirements. It’s mostly inconsequential, anyways.

MIT majors also have unrestricted electives that can use the AP credits including capstone.