Did you miss that established doctors are also leaving red states? Prosecute them for trying to follow the law, and that trend will accelerate. They and their colleagues can see what is happening.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What doctor would risk running afoul of the law, losing their license, facing jail time? I don't blame the doctors for being super conservative about what constitutes a "medical emergency".

That's what these draconian laws have caused.

Again, no one thinks they need an abortion until they do. Good luck to those pregnant women in those states. Your now risky pregnancy, which is always a risk, is now even riskier for your health. I would make sure you get your affairs in order when you get pregnant.

If you're going to be threatened with jail time either way, AND you aren't left alone to do your job as you were trained, why stay in that state?

There are plenty of blue states ready to welcome you. Those blue states need more doctors to treat the patients crossing the border anyway. You could end up being exactly the same patients, just without threats of lawsuit coming from all directions.

Maybe they like the no taxes; maybe they have family. Who knows? But, either way, they aren't going to provide the medical care that pregnant women need.

But, new doctors, residents, are less likely to go to red states with those laws than the blue states, that's for sure. So, long term, yea, there will be an even more acute doctor shortage who can help pregnant women in emergencies.

According to new statistics from the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC), for the second year in a row, students graduating from U.S. medical schools this year were less likely to apply for residency positions in states with abortion bans and other significant abortion restrictions.

The new analysis by the AAMC — exclusively reviewed by KFF Health News before its public release — found that the number of applicants to residency programs in states with near-total abortion bans declined by 4.2% between 2024 and 2023, compared with a 0.6% drop in states where abortion remains legal.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/05/09/1250057657/medical-residents-starting-avoid-states-abortion-bans

Good luck to pregnant women in those backward states.

^^end up treating

But a lot of doctors are women, too, especially in OB-Gynecologist. It's medically safer for them to live in blue states, too. Win-win.

Anonymous wrote:What doctor would risk running afoul of the law, losing their license, facing jail time? I don't blame the doctors for being super conservative about what constitutes a "medical emergency".

That's what these draconian laws have caused.

Again, no one thinks they need an abortion until they do. Good luck to those pregnant women in those states. Your now risky pregnancy, which is always a risk, is now even riskier for your health. I would make sure you get your affairs in order when you get pregnant.

If you're going to be threatened with jail time either way, AND you aren't left alone to do your job as you were trained, why stay in that state?

There are plenty of blue states ready to welcome you. Those blue states need more doctors to treat the patients crossing the border anyway. You could end up being exactly the same patients, just without threats of lawsuit coming from all directions.

What doctor would risk running afoul of the law, losing their license, facing jail time? I don't blame the doctors for being super conservative about what constitutes a "medical emergency".

That's what these draconian laws have caused.

Again, no one thinks they need an abortion until they do. Good luck to those pregnant women in those states. Your now risky pregnancy, which is always a risk, is now even riskier for your health. I would make sure you get your affairs in order when you get pregnant.

^^states

You can"t force doctors to work in Staes where they cannot provide standard care to their patients and also fear prosecution no matter what they do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

Except the doctors didn’t fail to recognize the medical distress or know how to treat it. They just weren’t willing to risk losing their licenses and going to prison for providing the appropriate treatment. Why? Because the ban incentivizes taking the least action necessary in such situations, not taking quick, decisive action. The consequences of delivering a non viable fetus that still has a heartbeat are far harsher than the consequences of taking a “wait and see” approach.

And this is driving doctors to leave states with these vaguely draconian laws about medical decisions, or not to be trained in those states.

There have been calls for doctors effectively to perform civil disobedience by defying these legal threats. Another way to protest is to leave those states.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

Except the doctors didn’t fail to recognize the medical distress or know how to treat it. They just weren’t willing to risk losing their licenses and going to prison for providing the appropriate treatment. Why? Because the ban incentivizes taking the least action necessary in such situations, not taking quick, decisive action. The consequences of delivering a non viable fetus that still has a heartbeat are far harsher than the consequences of taking a “wait and see” approach.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.

In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

The fetus was 17 weeks old with a heartbeat. The doctors believed she was miscarrying, but the fetus was still alive. What if there had been a miracle? A doctor intervening guarantees the woman aborts the baby. What’s the medical code on that? Is it classified as a miscarriage if it happens naturally, but an abortion as soon as a medication is introduced to expel the fetus?

It’s just so shortsighted to see these government forced situations as black/white decisions. The doctors are over a barrel while the state of Texas and the Christian right are willing to bet a woman’s life on a miracle.

It's not hard. It's a medical decision. not a legal one.

Stop denying reality.

It was a medical decision when medical professionals were trusted to make the decision based on their knowledge and training. Once the TX legislature passed the ban with draconian punishments for doctors, it became a legal decision as much as a medical decision.

Doctors face 99 years in prison for delivering fetuses with heartbeats who haven’t yet reached viability, like this poor woman’s fetus at 17 weeks. The doctors’ hands were tied until the fetus no longer had a heartbeat or the mother’s death was imminent. The fetus’s heart kept beating. The doctors had to guess when the mother’s death was imminent.

Specifically because of this ban, doctors face harsher penalties for delivering the fetus earlier than the absolute last minute to save the mother’s life than they do for waiting too long and allowing the mom to die from a preventable cause.

That's how this ban plays out in reality. It is not pro life. It’s just anti abortion. It’s killing women in cases where the fetus can’t be saved anyway. What is the legislature doing to fix this problem they created before more women die unnecessarily?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

I guess you think the doctors need to go to jail for not giving her an abortion then.

What a great system.

Of course. Failing to treat a patient in an emergent situation that leads to their death should be prosecuted. It was clear this was an emergency and he failed to act. What’s the gray area?

Because the emergency treatment she needed was illegal.

Actually it wasn’t, which is why it is malpractice. Emergency treatment IS legal, even abortions, in every single state

No, it was illegal.

“But Texas’ new abortion ban had just gone into effect. It required physicians to confirm the absence of a fetal heartbeat before intervening unless there was a “medical emergency,” which the law did not define. It required doctors to make written notes on the patient’s condition and the reason abortion was necessary.

The law did not account for the possibility of a future emergency, one that could develop in hours or days without intervention, doctors told ProPublica.

Barnica was technically still stable. But lying in the hospital with her cervix open wider than a baseball left her uterus exposed to bacteria and placed her at high risk of developing sepsis, experts told ProPublica. Infections can move fast and be hard to control once they take hold.”

The law doesn’t need to define medical emergency because that is what doctors are trained to identify. She was left 9cm dilated for over 40 hrs, with zero intervention. Of course that is an emergency and the doctor failing to act can’t hide behind abortion restrictions. They will be sued and they will lose

When Kate Coxs doctors said her situation was a medical emergency, Ken Paxton disagreed and threatened to prosecute them. So it’s not actually the doctors decision. It’s the decision of prosecutors months or years after the fact. No doctor is going to bet their freedom on what Ken Paxton considers to be an emergency.

Yep. Texas medicine is practiced by lawyers now (and lawyers who lean really far in the direction of being anti-woman).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

I guess you think the doctors need to go to jail for not giving her an abortion then.

What a great system.

Of course. Failing to treat a patient in an emergent situation that leads to their death should be prosecuted. It was clear this was an emergency and he failed to act. What’s the gray area?

Because the emergency treatment she needed was illegal.

Actually it wasn’t, which is why it is malpractice. Emergency treatment IS legal, even abortions, in every single state

No, it was illegal.

“But Texas’ new abortion ban had just gone into effect. It required physicians to confirm the absence of a fetal heartbeat before intervening unless there was a “medical emergency,” which the law did not define. It required doctors to make written notes on the patient’s condition and the reason abortion was necessary.

The law did not account for the possibility of a future emergency, one that could develop in hours or days without intervention, doctors told ProPublica.

Barnica was technically still stable. But lying in the hospital with her cervix open wider than a baseball left her uterus exposed to bacteria and placed her at high risk of developing sepsis, experts told ProPublica. Infections can move fast and be hard to control once they take hold.”

The law doesn’t need to define medical emergency because that is what doctors are trained to identify. She was left 9cm dilated for over 40 hrs, with zero intervention. Of course that is an emergency and the doctor failing to act can’t hide behind abortion restrictions. They will be sued and they will lose

When Kate Coxs doctors said her situation was a medical emergency, Ken Paxton disagreed and threatened to prosecute them. So it’s not actually the doctors decision. It’s the decision of prosecutors months or years after the fact. No doctor is going to bet their freedom on what Ken Paxton considers to be an emergency.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

I guess you think the doctors need to go to jail for not giving her an abortion then.

What a great system.

Of course. Failing to treat a patient in an emergent situation that leads to their death should be prosecuted. It was clear this was an emergency and he failed to act. What’s the gray area?

Because the emergency treatment she needed was illegal.

Actually it wasn’t, which is why it is malpractice. Emergency treatment IS legal, even abortions, in every single state

No, it was illegal.

“But Texas’ new abortion ban had just gone into effect. It required physicians to confirm the absence of a fetal heartbeat before intervening unless there was a “medical emergency,” which the law did not define. It required doctors to make written notes on the patient’s condition and the reason abortion was necessary.

The law did not account for the possibility of a future emergency, one that could develop in hours or days without intervention, doctors told ProPublica.

Barnica was technically still stable. But lying in the hospital with her cervix open wider than a baseball left her uterus exposed to bacteria and placed her at high risk of developing sepsis, experts told ProPublica. Infections can move fast and be hard to control once they take hold.”

The law doesn’t need to define medical emergency because that is what doctors are trained to identify. She was left 9cm dilated for over 40 hrs, with zero intervention. Of course that is an emergency and the doctor failing to act can’t hide behind abortion restrictions. They will be sued and they will lose

That’s a really cute story until you look at other things that have happened in Texas— for example a woman being told by her doctors she had a life threatening emergency, a court ruling in her favor, and then then AG saying he would send the doctors to prison if they performed life saving care.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

I guess you think the doctors need to go to jail for not giving her an abortion then.

What a great system.

Of course. Failing to treat a patient in an emergent situation that leads to their death should be prosecuted. It was clear this was an emergency and he failed to act. What’s the gray area?

Because the emergency treatment she needed was illegal.

Actually it wasn’t, which is why it is malpractice. Emergency treatment IS legal, even abortions, in every single state

No, it was illegal.

“But Texas’ new abortion ban had just gone into effect. It required physicians to confirm the absence of a fetal heartbeat before intervening unless there was a “medical emergency,” which the law did not define. It required doctors to make written notes on the patient’s condition and the reason abortion was necessary.

The law did not account for the possibility of a future emergency, one that could develop in hours or days without intervention, doctors told ProPublica.

Barnica was technically still stable. But lying in the hospital with her cervix open wider than a baseball left her uterus exposed to bacteria and placed her at high risk of developing sepsis, experts told ProPublica. Infections can move fast and be hard to control once they take hold.”

The law doesn’t need to define medical emergency because that is what doctors are trained to identify. She was left 9cm dilated for over 40 hrs, with zero intervention. Of course that is an emergency and the doctor failing to act can’t hide behind abortion restrictions. They will be sued and they will lose

Also the infection/sepsis set in after. The extended dilation led to infection but how long before it is safe to abort if she is also not yet septic? They do not know she will become septic only that the risk is going up over time. How long to wait before the doctor is safe from a TX prosecutor? There is no specific definition here. Lawsuit will not go anywhere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is doctor malpractice. The baby’s head was already exiting the cervix and she needed medicine to speed up the delivery. It’s not even about abortion which is allowed under Texas law for a “medical emergency” anyway, she was in the middle of a miscarriage that they allowed to go on too long.

But the heart hadn't stopped beating and under Texas law that was the relevant part.

You see, if you think that doctors should be able to exercise reasonable judgment, then you should advocate for laws that allow doctors to do just that. Because these doctors certainly did not want this woman to die, and they also didn't want to go to jail - and they chose the latter over the former.

THAT is the system that Texas Republicans have in place, thanks to Donald Trump - serial rapist, payer of many abortions.

These are not reasonable laws. You can talk out both sides of your mouth trying to insist they are. But this woman is dead. I think her argument is more persuasive.

Speeding up delivery is not an abortion, for one. She was already delivering the child.
In addition, Texas law allows for abortions in a “medical emergency” so again, this is doctor malpractice.

Correct. The doctor failed to recognize medical the distress his patient was in and failed to provide emergency treatment. Unfortunately this happens with or without abortion bans. You internet warriors can find many many articles of pregnant women who get septic, die, bleed to death because their OB/Gyn waited too long or did the wrong thing- even in blue states. It’s MALPRACTICE

I guess you think the doctors need to go to jail for not giving her an abortion then.

What a great system.

Of course. Failing to treat a patient in an emergent situation that leads to their death should be prosecuted. It was clear this was an emergency and he failed to act. What’s the gray area?

Because the emergency treatment she needed was illegal.

Actually it wasn’t, which is why it is malpractice. Emergency treatment IS legal, even abortions, in every single state

No, it was illegal.

“But Texas’ new abortion ban had just gone into effect. It required physicians to confirm the absence of a fetal heartbeat before intervening unless there was a “medical emergency,” which the law did not define. It required doctors to make written notes on the patient’s condition and the reason abortion was necessary.

The law did not account for the possibility of a future emergency, one that could develop in hours or days without intervention, doctors told ProPublica.

Barnica was technically still stable. But lying in the hospital with her cervix open wider than a baseball left her uterus exposed to bacteria and placed her at high risk of developing sepsis, experts told ProPublica. Infections can move fast and be hard to control once they take hold.”

The law doesn’t need to define medical emergency because that is what doctors are trained to identify. She was left 9cm dilated for over 40 hrs, with zero intervention. Of course that is an emergency and the doctor failing to act can’t hide behind abortion restrictions. They will be sued and they will lose

Nope. That’s not enough for Paxton, and we all know it. He’s paralyzed the doctors. They want to act, but his religious zealotry has reverted the state to the Dark Ages.