Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps I'm slow (because I only attended a state school after all!), but I would love to understand the parents' thought process here.

Is the expectation that the student will transform from someone who requires 23 tutors and curated hobbies into a young adult who can function independently? Or how is that supposed to work out? Do they not think beyond the Ivy admission?

Let's see, the parent could pay for the fancy apartment + help to get the fancy job, then continue to pay for the cleaners/food delivery/anything else until the kid makes enough money to take over those bills. I thought this was crazy but it's actually the plan of some parents I know. They are very wealthy and have told me they/and their kids don't like discomfort.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to see a grass root movement of applicants using the additional information section to note that they didn't use a private counselor

How can you ensure the students wont lie about using a college counselor? They lie about ECs, race and everything in between..

There is no way to track it. Also, it's not a fair question. Given that Private school kids get the equivalent of what I hired (a $4K for 4 full years of college counseling, all in), IMO most Private school kids should have to check that box.
But there would need to be a different box for people spending $10-20K, and 20K+

I think it's an assumption based on your zip code of what level of CC you likely have

That’s true.

Colleges expect a more curated application full pay private school students.
All the bells & whistles

Private school kids do not get the kind of CC you are paying for -- they are paying for the outside counselors too. Sadly, I learned that too late for my kids.

Well you get a huge step up from what my excellent Public school offered. my kids had 600-650 seniors in their graduating classes, about 95% go onto CC and 4 year colleges (we have an excellent CC that is actually now also a 4 year college for some programs and it nearly guarnatees admission to the state flagship that is difficult to get into directly---T50 school). We have TWO counselors and for one of my kids one of them was PT due to returning from maternity leave (and nobody was hired for the other 50% of the job). So 1.5 people for approximately 600 kids going to college.
Our regular counselors there are 6 for 2500 students. Yes you read that correctly! So they are also not much help. Typically most kids have not even met their regular counselor aside by the time they graduate, save a 5 min meeting (which disappeared during covid) to sign off on next year schedule.

So I'm going to bet you have a much better reg counselor and CC ratio at your private school. But still not enough I'm sure

That is why we paid for our 2nd to have one. First I managed. They applied to schools in the 60-130 range and got into them all. It was easy as these were not "competitive" schools and my kid was 50-75%+ at all of them.

2nd kid had 1500/3.98UW/8AP and had interest in a few T30 Schools. So we hired a counselor to assist with college lists and what to do (within reason) to increase chances. Within reason includes my engineering interested kid who had no STEM ECs was recommended to take at least one 2-3 week summer course in programming/STEM focused, to show interest. That was probably a good idea and certainly didn't hurt my kid. But it was a simple course, my kid enjoyed it, and they actually learned from it. But they were not "doing research" or writing a book.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article should tell you how fake everything is.. from what activities to choose to what classes etc to take. Everything is curated. What a way to kill your innate passion and creativity.. 11 year olds already on this path to get into an Ivy.

From the article..

One of her stu­dents has 23 tu­tors help­ing her on aca­d­e­mic sub­jects and test prepa­ra­tion. The stu­dent is also writ­ing a novel, edit­ing an es­say for a com­pet­i­tive jour­nal and work­ing on a re­search pa­per that looks at the lin­guis­tic pat­terns in Tay­lor Swift songs.

I'm happy my kids had a happy childhood (actual childhood) and got to choose their activities because they enjoyed them.

BTW, one attended their top choice the other attended their 2nd choice (top was a T10, 2nd was a T40 and in reality a better fit for them and they are thriving there).

Best part, my kids got to grow up as they should and were not trying to write a novel in HS or do research as a 12 yo.

The one at a T40 is majoring in one of the hardest engineering (Chem Eng) and has all As in every Chem Eng Course. The kid thinks Thermo and Heat&Mass transfer is easy and fun. They have a bright future ahead and most importantly are healthy and happy!

There are kids at T10, in ChemE or similarly hard fields, who also are healthy and thriving there, who got there after a healthy childhood with no novel writing or middle school research or founding nonprofits or 23 tutors. We are parents to 2 and have another like yours where t30-40 is going to be the better fit—they likely won’t apply to T10 knowing how well it suits the others and that environment is not where they will thrive. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that being at a T10 means you either faked your way in or did not have a healthy happy childhood. Those schools are a wonderful fit and the right environment for many who are there. These crimson kids are not the norm at these schools.

I'm PP: Yes, I know there are plenty who are happy and thriving at those schools. The ones who are are exactly as you described---kids who got there thru their own work and motivation and drive. Those are the ones who will go on to excel in life, because it's 100% their own work and drive.
Those who got there with $50K+ college counselors will eventually have to learn to do things themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article should tell you how fake everything is.. from what activities to choose to what classes etc to take. Everything is curated. What a way to kill your innate passion and creativity.. 11 year olds already on this path to get into an Ivy.

From the article..

One of her stu­dents has 23 tu­tors help­ing her on aca­d­e­mic sub­jects and test prepa­ra­tion. The stu­dent is also writ­ing a novel, edit­ing an es­say for a com­pet­i­tive jour­nal and work­ing on a re­search pa­per that looks at the lin­guis­tic pat­terns in Tay­lor Swift songs.

I'm happy my kids had a happy childhood (actual childhood) and got to choose their activities because they enjoyed them.

BTW, one attended their top choice the other attended their 2nd choice (top was a T10, 2nd was a T40 and in reality a better fit for them and they are thriving there).

Best part, my kids got to grow up as they should and were not trying to write a novel in HS or do research as a 12 yo.

The one at a T40 is majoring in one of the hardest engineering (Chem Eng) and has all As in every Chem Eng Course. The kid thinks Thermo and Heat&Mass transfer is easy and fun. They have a bright future ahead and most importantly are healthy and happy!

There are kids at T10, in ChemE or similarly hard fields, who also are healthy and thriving there, who got there after a healthy childhood with no novel writing or middle school research or founding nonprofits or 23 tutors. We are parents to 2 and have another like yours where t30-40 is going to be the better fit—they likely won’t apply to T10 knowing how well it suits the others and that environment is not where they will thrive. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that being at a T10 means you either faked your way in or did not have a healthy happy childhood. Those schools are a wonderful fit and the right environment for many who are there. These crimson kids are not the norm at these schools.

Why would they not thrive at the T10 environment?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to see a grass root movement of applicants using the additional information section to note that they didn't use a private counselor

How can you ensure the students wont lie about using a college counselor? They lie about ECs, race and everything in between..

There is no way to track it. Also, it's not a fair question. Given that Private school kids get the equivalent of what I hired (a $4K for 4 full years of college counseling, all in), IMO most Private school kids should have to check that box.
But there would need to be a different box for people spending $10-20K, and 20K+

I think it's an assumption based on your zip code of what level of CC you likely have

That’s true.

Colleges expect a more curated application full pay private school students.
All the bells & whistles

Private school kids do not get the kind of CC you are paying for -- they are paying for the outside counselors too. Sadly, I learned that too late for my kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting quotes from the article:

This year, Beaton’s clients made up nearly 2% of students admitted to the undergraduate class of 2028 at several elite schools including Brown, Columbia, Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania. Among his clients, 24 earned admission to Yale, 34 to Stanford and 48 to Cornell. The acceptance letters were certified by PricewaterhouseCoopers and a list of students admitted were provided by Beaton to The Wall Street Journal.

At Harvard, 23% of freshmen who started in fall 2023 reported working with a private admissions counselor, up from 13% in 2017, according to an annual survey conducted by the student newspaper. Last year, for freshmen from families with incomes over $500,000, 48% used one.

Data from the Crimson applications accepted at Ivy Leagues have refined Beaton’s understanding of what it takes to get in.

The average score on advanced-placement exams was 4.8 out of 5. The accepted students took an average of 8.4 AP classes—and those admitted to Harvard, Yale and Princeton took an average of 10.1 AP classes.

The average SAT score for an Ivy acceptance was 1568, and grades were as close to perfect as possible. A’s and A minuses are acceptable, but “B’s are bombs,” Beaton said.

Beaton said he advises students to aim for 10 activities connected across one or two themes, and that at least one should have a social-justice component. Leadership falls into two categories, institutional positions such as captain of sports teams or class president, and entrepreneurial positions.

One of her students has 23 tutors helping her on academic subjects and test preparation. The student is also writing a novel, editing an essay for a competitive journal and working on a research paper that looks at the linguistic patterns in Taylor Swift songs.

This is utterly ridiculous that this is what is needed to get into one of these "elite" schools. This is not organic. He or she is being molded to what they are. That's not the best and brightest -though I'm sure this person is very smart and ambitious- it's the best curated best and brightest.

I detest what college admissions has become. And before you say it, no, I'm not jealous. I would not want that for my child.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article should tell you how fake everything is.. from what activities to choose to what classes etc to take. Everything is curated. What a way to kill your innate passion and creativity.. 11 year olds already on this path to get into an Ivy.

From the article..

One of her stu­dents has 23 tu­tors help­ing her on aca­d­e­mic sub­jects and test prepa­ra­tion. The stu­dent is also writ­ing a novel, edit­ing an es­say for a com­pet­i­tive jour­nal and work­ing on a re­search pa­per that looks at the lin­guis­tic pat­terns in Tay­lor Swift songs.

I'm happy my kids had a happy childhood (actual childhood) and got to choose their activities because they enjoyed them.

BTW, one attended their top choice the other attended their 2nd choice (top was a T10, 2nd was a T40 and in reality a better fit for them and they are thriving there).

Best part, my kids got to grow up as they should and were not trying to write a novel in HS or do research as a 12 yo.

The one at a T40 is majoring in one of the hardest engineering (Chem Eng) and has all As in every Chem Eng Course. The kid thinks Thermo and Heat&Mass transfer is easy and fun. They have a bright future ahead and most importantly are healthy and happy!

There are kids at T10, in ChemE or similarly hard fields, who also are healthy and thriving there, who got there after a healthy childhood with no novel writing or middle school research or founding nonprofits or 23 tutors. We are parents to 2 and have another like yours where t30-40 is going to be the better fit—they likely won’t apply to T10 knowing how well it suits the others and that environment is not where they will thrive. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that being at a T10 means you either faked your way in or did not have a healthy happy childhood. Those schools are a wonderful fit and the right environment for many who are there. These crimson kids are not the norm at these schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Clearly we need a new checkbox on the Common App: Did you work with a college counselor other than the one at your school on this application?

And then what? Colleges have no interest in removing these students from the applicant pool. There’s a host of reasons people use counselors: maybe parents are from abroad and find our system confusing. Many a kid is first gen and getting free counseling from a CBO. Maybe a kid has learning differences and searching for a special college that fits well. Maybe students are looking for merit and a counselor is advising them on list building?

Using a counselor isn’t problematic. But using someone who writes your essay & creates a false profile is. Big difference

Yup! A good CC (by my definition) helps you over the 4 years (if needed) to create a list of courses to be ready for college (someone first gen may not have parents who understand this fully), helps you know that you need some EC activities in HS and that it's good to find a few that you like and pursue them for all of HS (dont' just bounce from 1 activity to another every few months---they like to see 4 years of band/orch or 4 years of drama club or 4 years of a sport), encourage you to find volunteering that is meaningful and does more than just check a box, help you find a few EC activities to supplement your academic interests, help create a great list of potential colleges for your intended majors (they are highly skilled at this and will help you have a great list of ones you can afford as well as true Reaches, targets and safeties that your kid actually likes), help with test prep, and help with essay development (brainstorming, but the kid does 99% of the work, CC just guides and makes them think and revise). And most importantly, it saves your sanity senior year so you do NOT have to nag your kid to stay on schedule.

Yes, it's a privilege to be able to afford that. Yes, you can do most of it yourself. Aside from the essay writing, I can do the rest. But our CC helped find some hidden gems for my kid---ones I may not have found. Then they let us know the top choice really wants you to do an "interview" so after the visit if we liked it, you schedule an interview immediately. My kid did, did the interview the next week over the Summer and is attending that school. But I wouldn't have know just how important that interview/expressing interest is to getting admission. o it's the little things that help Make the process easier.
But our CC told me I could do 95% of her job, as I demonstrated (did it all with my first kid). But My kid was much more receptive to hearing about schools from the CC than from me, and listening to suggestions of small things to do. So it made my life easier and less stressful. A nd I figure if I'm willing to pay $90K/year for college, the least I can do is pay $1K/year in HS (or 4K total) to assist

I would not pay $20K+---not worth it

Wake?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article should tell you how fake everything is.. from what activities to choose to what classes etc to take. Everything is curated. What a way to kill your innate passion and creativity.. 11 year olds already on this path to get into an Ivy.

From the article..

One of her stu­dents has 23 tu­tors help­ing her on aca­d­e­mic sub­jects and test prepa­ra­tion. The stu­dent is also writ­ing a novel, edit­ing an es­say for a com­pet­i­tive jour­nal and work­ing on a re­search pa­per that looks at the lin­guis­tic pat­terns in Tay­lor Swift songs.

I'm happy my kids had a happy childhood (actual childhood) and got to choose their activities because they enjoyed them.

BTW, one attended their top choice the other attended their 2nd choice (top was a T10, 2nd was a T40 and in reality a better fit for them and they are thriving there).

Best part, my kids got to grow up as they should and were not trying to write a novel in HS or do research as a 12 yo.

The one at a T40 is majoring in one of the hardest engineering (Chem Eng) and has all As in every Chem Eng Course. The kid thinks Thermo and Heat&Mass transfer is easy and fun. They have a bright future ahead and most importantly are healthy and happy!

There are kids at T10, in ChemE or similarly hard fields, who also are healthy and thriving there, who got there after a healthy childhood with no novel writing or middle school research or founding nonprofits or 23 tutors. We are parents to 2 and have another like yours where t30-40 is going to be the better fit—they likely won’t apply to T10 knowing how well it suits the others and that environment is not where they will thrive. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that being at a T10 means you either faked your way in or did not have a healthy happy childhood. Those schools are a wonderful fit and the right environment for many who are there. These crimson kids are not the norm at these schools.

Your kids are either legacy or Pell grant or URM. Simple as that. The only ones that got in to HYPS from my daughter school, a third been Asians, had counselors and did the fake research and non-profits more or less. The actual very smart kids they are at the state flagship, if CS they may end up at CMU or IUIUC or Purdue, the campers at MIT.

Yep the brilliant students at my kid’s school went to Georgia Tech, Berkeley, Wisconsin Madison and UIUC.

The students who went to Ivies were either athletic recruits or legacy, and one writer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article should tell you how fake everything is.. from what activities to choose to what classes etc to take. Everything is curated. What a way to kill your innate passion and creativity.. 11 year olds already on this path to get into an Ivy.

From the article..

One of her stu­dents has 23 tu­tors help­ing her on aca­d­e­mic sub­jects and test prepa­ra­tion. The stu­dent is also writ­ing a novel, edit­ing an es­say for a com­pet­i­tive jour­nal and work­ing on a re­search pa­per that looks at the lin­guis­tic pat­terns in Tay­lor Swift songs.

I'm happy my kids had a happy childhood (actual childhood) and got to choose their activities because they enjoyed them.

BTW, one attended their top choice the other attended their 2nd choice (top was a T10, 2nd was a T40 and in reality a better fit for them and they are thriving there).

Best part, my kids got to grow up as they should and were not trying to write a novel in HS or do research as a 12 yo.

The one at a T40 is majoring in one of the hardest engineering (Chem Eng) and has all As in every Chem Eng Course. The kid thinks Thermo and Heat&Mass transfer is easy and fun. They have a bright future ahead and most importantly are healthy and happy!

There are kids at T10, in ChemE or similarly hard fields, who also are healthy and thriving there, who got there after a healthy childhood with no novel writing or middle school research or founding nonprofits or 23 tutors. We are parents to 2 and have another like yours where t30-40 is going to be the better fit—they likely won’t apply to T10 knowing how well it suits the others and that environment is not where they will thrive. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that being at a T10 means you either faked your way in or did not have a healthy happy childhood. Those schools are a wonderful fit and the right environment for many who are there. These crimson kids are not the norm at these schools.

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is why no one will hire students from these colleges ever again. They are all fake people who have done nothing real on their own. They will be terrible team players on projects.

+1
Everything about these kids is manufactured and "packaged." Surely, colleges can tell by now who is being managed and formed into a product and who is not? Honestly, using college counselors should be forbidden in the application process. What a joke.

What makes you think that the AOs don’t know about this or they care to end this?

Anonymous wrote:Interesting quotes from the article:

This year, Beaton’s clients made up nearly 2% of students admitted to the undergraduate class of 2028 at several elite schools including Brown, Columbia, Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania. Among his clients, 24 earned admission to Yale, 34 to Stanford and 48 to Cornell. The acceptance letters were certified by PricewaterhouseCoopers and a list of students admitted were provided by Beaton to The Wall Street Journal.

At Harvard, 23% of freshmen who started in fall 2023 reported working with a private admissions counselor, up from 13% in 2017, according to an annual survey conducted by the student newspaper. Last year, for freshmen from families with incomes over $500,000, 48% used one.

Data from the Crimson applications accepted at Ivy Leagues have refined Beaton’s understanding of what it takes to get in.

The average score on advanced-placement exams was 4.8 out of 5. The accepted students took an average of 8.4 AP classes—and those admitted to Harvard, Yale and Princeton took an average of 10.1 AP classes.

The average SAT score for an Ivy acceptance was 1568, and grades were as close to perfect as possible. A’s and A minuses are acceptable, but “B’s are bombs,” Beaton said.

Beaton said he advises students to aim for 10 activities connected across one or two themes, and that at least one should have a social-justice component. Leadership falls into two categories, institutional positions such as captain of sports teams or class president, and entrepreneurial positions.

One of her students has 23 tutors helping her on academic subjects and test preparation. The student is also writing a novel, editing an essay for a competitive journal and working on a research paper that looks at the linguistic patterns in Taylor Swift songs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This article should tell you how fake everything is.. from what activities to choose to what classes etc to take. Everything is curated. What a way to kill your innate passion and creativity.. 11 year olds already on this path to get into an Ivy.

From the article..

One of her stu­dents has 23 tu­tors help­ing her on aca­d­e­mic sub­jects and test prepa­ra­tion. The stu­dent is also writ­ing a novel, edit­ing an es­say for a com­pet­i­tive jour­nal and work­ing on a re­search pa­per that looks at the lin­guis­tic pat­terns in Tay­lor Swift songs.

I'm happy my kids had a happy childhood (actual childhood) and got to choose their activities because they enjoyed them.

BTW, one attended their top choice the other attended their 2nd choice (top was a T10, 2nd was a T40 and in reality a better fit for them and they are thriving there).

Best part, my kids got to grow up as they should and were not trying to write a novel in HS or do research as a 12 yo.

The one at a T40 is majoring in one of the hardest engineering (Chem Eng) and has all As in every Chem Eng Course. The kid thinks Thermo and Heat&Mass transfer is easy and fun. They have a bright future ahead and most importantly are healthy and happy!

There are kids at T10, in ChemE or similarly hard fields, who also are healthy and thriving there, who got there after a healthy childhood with no novel writing or middle school research or founding nonprofits or 23 tutors. We are parents to 2 and have another like yours where t30-40 is going to be the better fit—they likely won’t apply to T10 knowing how well it suits the others and that environment is not where they will thrive. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that being at a T10 means you either faked your way in or did not have a healthy happy childhood. Those schools are a wonderful fit and the right environment for many who are there. These crimson kids are not the norm at these schools.

Your kids are either legacy or Pell grant or URM. Simple as that. The only ones that got in to HYPS from my daughter school, a third been Asians, had counselors and did the fake research and non-profits more or less. The actual very smart kids they are at the state flagship, if CS they may end up at CMU or IUIUC or Purdue, the campers at MIT.