Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ADHD is literally poor executive functioning. This task would have taken multiple executive functions: planning, organization, making goals, task initiation, time management, flexibility to deal with you being gone, problem solving (actually he did that, just not how you would have), maybe self-restraint. It's everything he struggles with.

Right, so this is a problem the husband needs to solve. Yes, it seems Insurmountable to him but I'm guessing he has the tools and knowledge to get it done. He just doesn't want to put in the extra effort.

We all figure out how to do the things we struggle with, ADHD or not. Like I used to tell my toddler, it's hard but you can do it.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Seriously, did we read a different post at the start of this thread?

The guy DID solve the problem. He figured it out. He accomplished the task. He got it done. Did he do a great job? No. Did he do an adequate job? YES!

OP may be an A+ student and her husband is a C student. But at the end of the day, they both pass the course.

not if he half-*sses it every single time. and most parents aspire for more than a C for their kids.

Incorrect. If one does C caliber work every single time, one receives a C )not an F).

And if one wants to procreate and parent with fellow A+ students, they need to marry one. Not choose a C student and then complain that he doesn’t take academics as seriously as you think he should.

And while we’re on this grading analogy: some students are A+ in high school, when the work is easy and there is a lot of imposed structure in place. Some of these people go on to eventually become C students in University, through a combination of more difficult work (in the marriage analogy, this might be adding kids), and/or the lack of imposed structure (being an adult). The ADHD adult is like the bright student that eventually runs into academic work that is just too difficult. No amount of telling them that they’re lazy or that they should just study harder is going to make them understand material that is beyond their grasp.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ADHD is literally poor executive functioning. This task would have taken multiple executive functions: planning, organization, making goals, task initiation, time management, flexibility to deal with you being gone, problem solving (actually he did that, just not how you would have), maybe self-restraint. It's everything he struggles with.

Right, so this is a problem the husband needs to solve. Yes, it seems Insurmountable to him but I'm guessing he has the tools and knowledge to get it done. He just doesn't want to put in the extra effort.

We all figure out how to do the things we struggle with, ADHD or not. Like I used to tell my toddler, it's hard but you can do it.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Seriously, did we read a different post at the start of this thread?

The guy DID solve the problem. He figured it out. He accomplished the task. He got it done. Did he do a great job? No. Did he do an adequate job? YES!

OP may be an A+ student and her husband is a C student. But at the end of the day, they both pass the course.

not if he half-*sses it every single time. and most parents aspire for more than a C for their kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ADHD is literally poor executive functioning. This task would have taken multiple executive functions: planning, organization, making goals, task initiation, time management, flexibility to deal with you being gone, problem solving (actually he did that, just not how you would have), maybe self-restraint. It's everything he struggles with.

Right, so this is a problem the husband needs to solve. Yes, it seems Insurmountable to him but I'm guessing he has the tools and knowledge to get it done. He just doesn't want to put in the extra effort.

We all figure out how to do the things we struggle with, ADHD or not. Like I used to tell my toddler, it's hard but you can do it.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. Seriously, did we read a different post at the start of this thread?

The guy DID solve the problem. He figured it out. He accomplished the task. He got it done. Did he do a great job? No. Did he do an adequate job? YES!

OP may be an A+ student and her husband is a C student. But at the end of the day, they both pass the course.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

Last night I did just enough clean up in the kitchen to start the dishwasher and not leave food sitting out. Then I went to bed and left the rest of the dishes in the sink. I also didn’t clean the counter or the stovetop. Why? Because I was tired and I just… didn’t feel like it.

I did the rest of the clean up when I got up this morning. I didn’t leave the kitchen clean up unfinished as part of some nefarious plot to get my husband to do it for me. I just didn’t feel like doing it last night. If I had come downstairs and he had started admonishing me for not finishing up last night I would have been p!ssed. But he would never speak to me (or about me) that way, because we love and respect each other, and most importantly, we are both adults and neither one of us gets to be “in charge” in this relationship.

But good luck with your unhappy marriages, ladies. I’m sure every problem is always your husband’s fault.

Yes, we are back at "husband must do it the wife's way every time" or "every problem is the husband's fault" approach. Like I said upthread, middle ground.

Which fyi, you and your husband have, based on your description. OP doesn't have this with her partner.

But they do, she just won’t accept it! HE COMPLETED THE TASK that she was complaining about in her initial post! Their child attended the birthday party! The birthday kid received a gift!

He didn’t leave anything for OP to do in this scenario. He did it. She just doesn’t *approve* of how he did it.

Anonymous wrote:ADHD is literally poor executive functioning. This task would have taken multiple executive functions: planning, organization, making goals, task initiation, time management, flexibility to deal with you being gone, problem solving (actually he did that, just not how you would have), maybe self-restraint. It's everything he struggles with.

Right, so this is a problem the husband needs to solve. Yes, it seems Insurmountable to him but I'm guessing he has the tools and knowledge to get it done. He just doesn't want to put in the extra effort.

We all figure out how to do the things we struggle with, ADHD or not. Like I used to tell my toddler, it's hard but you can do it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

I’ll take care of the crumbs later.

Later, when? And why should everyone else in the house deal with the dirty counters in the meantime? What about bugs?

Later is fine.

wow thanks for how this plays out in realtime!

“Your request is unimportant and I will not even discuss it with you.”

Who has the power now B!?

(The most dysfunctional one)

^^so true. and this was hard for ME to accept. it took years to fully internalize that his dysfunctional behavior effectively gave him all the power and left me with few good choices. so we divorced. now he still exerts power by being dysfunctional-aggressive but it no longer impacts me on a daily basis and I am (hopefully) close to making sure it no longer affects me financially.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

Last night I did just enough clean up in the kitchen to start the dishwasher and not leave food sitting out. Then I went to bed and left the rest of the dishes in the sink. I also didn’t clean the counter or the stovetop. Why? Because I was tired and I just… didn’t feel like it.

I did the rest of the clean up when I got up this morning. I didn’t leave the kitchen clean up unfinished as part of some nefarious plot to get my husband to do it for me. I just didn’t feel like doing it last night. If I had come downstairs and he had started admonishing me for not finishing up last night I would have been p!ssed. But he would never speak to me (or about me) that way, because we love and respect each other, and most importantly, we are both adults and neither one of us gets to be “in charge” in this relationship.

But good luck with your unhappy marriages, ladies. I’m sure every problem is always your husband’s fault.

Yes, we are back at "husband must do it the wife's way every time" or "every problem is the husband's fault" approach. Like I said upthread, middle ground.

Which fyi, you and your husband have, based on your description. OP doesn't have this with her partner.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

I’ll take care of the crumbs later.

Later, when? And why should everyone else in the house deal with the dirty counters in the meantime? What about bugs?

Later is fine.

wow thanks for how this plays out in realtime!

“Your request is unimportant and I will not even discuss it with you.”

Who has the power now B!?

(The most dysfunctional one)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

I’ll take care of the crumbs later.

Later, when? And why should everyone else in the house deal with the dirty counters in the meantime? What about bugs?

Later is fine.

wow thanks for how this plays out in realtime!

“Your request is unimportant and I will not even discuss it with you.”

Stop it, you’re such a hag! Leave me alone!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

Last night I did just enough clean up in the kitchen to start the dishwasher and not leave food sitting out. Then I went to bed and left the rest of the dishes in the sink. I also didn’t clean the counter or the stovetop. Why? Because I was tired and I just… didn’t feel like it.

I did the rest of the clean up when I got up this morning. I didn’t leave the kitchen clean up unfinished as part of some nefarious plot to get my husband to do it for me. I just didn’t feel like doing it last night. If I had come downstairs and he had started admonishing me for not finishing up last night I would have been p!ssed. But he would never speak to me (or about me) that way, because we love and respect each other, and most importantly, we are both adults and neither one of us gets to be “in charge” in this relationship.

But good luck with your unhappy marriages, ladies. I’m sure every problem is always your husband’s fault.

Are you speaking from the perspective of someone with ADHD or are you just getting condescending because you think you have a perfect marriage due to your own superior choices and that people who struggle with their marriage are just stupid?

NO ONE on this thread is talking about a spouse who does what you just described. I haven't seen a single person complain that their ADHD spouse does 70-80% of household tasks and then saves the rest for later because they are tired. That's a normal human behavior and something I'd bet most of us do at least some of the time. If my DH did what you described here I'd be thrilled.

What we are talking about is someone who spends 3 hours making a meal while their spouse feeds the kids and gets them ready for bed (because the meal will not be ready until 9pm and the spouse doesn't care that this is too late for the kids or appreciate that his focus on this task he's enjoying means that all the parenting work for the evening is falling on his spouse) and dirties every dish in the house. Then leaves that mess totally untouched (perhaps even forgetting to put away the leftover food so all the work he put into this meal winds up congealing on the bottom of pans) and claims he will do it "in the morning." But you know from experience it won't be done in the morning and even if it was all this means is that he will be in the kitchen scrubbing pots and pans while you once again get the kids up and dressed and make their lunches and get them breakfast and get them to school. And you'll have to do breakfast and make lunches around his mess because he will not prioritize trying to make that task a little easier for you -- he'll get fixated on something like cleaning the stove top (a task that could wait) and if you try to ask him to clear some space so you can do a task not for yourself but for kids who belong to both of you he will get annoyed and snippy with you. You'll be accused of being ungrateful for all his hard work making dinner and too demanding that he make dinner AND help with the kids. He'll accuse you of being a perfectionist with impossibly high standards because you don't like waking up to a kitchen full of a huge mess that makes your morning routine impossible.

THAT is the challenge we are talking about. No one here is complaining about how their spouse cleaned up the kitchen but didn't wipe down the counters perfectly and left some dishes to soak in the sink. Get real.

The mentality is: I never learned how to do it when growing up and now I refuse.

Thank his parents for not doing their job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve known a LOT of men like this, including my H, my brother, and a couple ex-boyfriends.

I really think it all comes down to a lack of consequences. Someone is always there to save them, whether it’s a mom, girlfriend, or wife.

My H never did domestic work and I paid 75% of the bills, despite making half what he did. One day I decided if I had to go another day living like that, I’d run my car off a bridge. So I stopped. Stopped cooking, cleaning, covering his half of bills.

He tried calling my bluff by pulling the same “I don’t have money for bills this month, sorry”. So I put all his gym equipment up for sale on FB and sold it all by the time he got home from work. Told him I’d keep selling his stuff if he can’t pay his share. When he protested I packed my stuff up and had my attorney draw up a custody arrangement. Also made a Google Sheets adding up the amount of free time and extra money I’d have if I moved out (it was a lot) and sent it to him.

Money hasn’t been an issue since. He actually got a much higher paying job. I haven’t cleaned the house in over a year - he does it all. He cooks 4-5 nights a week.

It sucks, but you gotta treat these men the same way a boss would treat them. If they can’t fulfill their job, they don’t get to stay there anymore.

That being said, I had to hit my own rock bottom. I really couldn’t stand the idea of 40 more years of that life. I have zero doubt I would have died if I had to spend my life caring for an adult man.

I am amazed this actually worked, congratulations. The problem is that most of these men also get poisonously angry when confronted. Sounds like your DH actually wanted to change.

I don’t know how much of it was he wanted to change vs he just didn’t want to be divorced.

But I was legit suicidal at the thought of spending my life dealing with that, to the point I was put on suicide watch. So for me it wasn’t about getting him to change, it was that if I didn’t leave I would be dead.

Wow. I bet your doctors told him he needed to step up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

Last night I did just enough clean up in the kitchen to start the dishwasher and not leave food sitting out. Then I went to bed and left the rest of the dishes in the sink. I also didn’t clean the counter or the stovetop. Why? Because I was tired and I just… didn’t feel like it.

I did the rest of the clean up when I got up this morning. I didn’t leave the kitchen clean up unfinished as part of some nefarious plot to get my husband to do it for me. I just didn’t feel like doing it last night. If I had come downstairs and he had started admonishing me for not finishing up last night I would have been p!ssed. But he would never speak to me (or about me) that way, because we love and respect each other, and most importantly, we are both adults and neither one of us gets to be “in charge” in this relationship.

But good luck with your unhappy marriages, ladies. I’m sure every problem is always your husband’s fault.

Great. The difference is that you did 80% of the cleanup and did the rest in the morning. These guys do 10% (if that much) AND fail to distinguish between the tasks that can be left for later (some rinsed dishes in the sink) and those that snowball and are unpleasant for others (leaving food out).

FWIW I think a lot of reasonable people wouldn’t want to leave dirty counters at night but it sounds like you and your spouse are aligned on that. If you weren’t aligned then in a healthy functional relationship there would be discussion and compromise about it.

Yup it’s this. It’s totally reasonable to leave dishes for the next morning. But a lot of men will leave it for days. I tested my H once by seeing how long he would go without doing the dishes. Almost 2 weeks went by before I caved and did them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve known a LOT of men like this, including my H, my brother, and a couple ex-boyfriends.

I really think it all comes down to a lack of consequences. Someone is always there to save them, whether it’s a mom, girlfriend, or wife.

My H never did domestic work and I paid 75% of the bills, despite making half what he did. One day I decided if I had to go another day living like that, I’d run my car off a bridge. So I stopped. Stopped cooking, cleaning, covering his half of bills.

He tried calling my bluff by pulling the same “I don’t have money for bills this month, sorry”. So I put all his gym equipment up for sale on FB and sold it all by the time he got home from work. Told him I’d keep selling his stuff if he can’t pay his share. When he protested I packed my stuff up and had my attorney draw up a custody arrangement. Also made a Google Sheets adding up the amount of free time and extra money I’d have if I moved out (it was a lot) and sent it to him.

Money hasn’t been an issue since. He actually got a much higher paying job. I haven’t cleaned the house in over a year - he does it all. He cooks 4-5 nights a week.

It sucks, but you gotta treat these men the same way a boss would treat them. If they can’t fulfill their job, they don’t get to stay there anymore.

That being said, I had to hit my own rock bottom. I really couldn’t stand the idea of 40 more years of that life. I have zero doubt I would have died if I had to spend my life caring for an adult man.

I am amazed this actually worked, congratulations. The problem is that most of these men also get poisonously angry when confronted. Sounds like your DH actually wanted to change.

I don’t know how much of it was he wanted to change vs he just didn’t want to be divorced.

But I was legit suicidal at the thought of spending my life dealing with that, to the point I was put on suicide watch. So for me it wasn’t about getting him to change, it was that if I didn’t leave I would be dead.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

You have a mental disorder. I feel sorry for your spouse and your kids. And actually, your kids’ friends, because you are the type of parent who micromanages and sucks the fun out of everything.

(Also, for the record, craft kits are stupid, wasteful, unimaginative instagram crap that mommies like you buy in order to feel superior because it’s such a good “educational” gift…)

She has a mental disorder because she believes men should make an effort of some sort? OK.

But for those in the audience: this PP’s aggressive, hostile and deflecting response to an actually totally reasonable discussion of what it takes to run a household fairly is totally characteristic of these guys. Instead of calmly discussing how to split the work they retaliate and deflect.

The root cause of your unhappiness is your mistaken belief that you are “the boss” (i.e. your standards are the correct standards), coupled with your contradictory belief that as one of two adults in a relationship you shouldn’t have to be “the boss”.

This thread is a perfect illustration of this. OP is complaining not that her husband didn’t take the kid to the party or provide a gift (because by her own admission he did in fact accomplish both of those tasks); she is complaining because he didn’t do it to her standard. Which of course, in her mind, is the “correct” standard. She claims that she wants to be able to relinquish control, and yet she is completely incapable of relinquishing control. That’s not her husband’s issue, it’s her issue.

yeah your immediate reaction that someone trying to get you to participate equally is trying to exert control over you is also 100% in character.

how about actually considering all of the tasks that need to be done and engaging fruitfully, instead of defaulting to “you’re a nagging b” every time your wife asks you not to leave crumbs on the counter?

also just to take one example, I’d really like you to spell out the rationale for leaving crumbs on the counter.

Last night I did just enough clean up in the kitchen to start the dishwasher and not leave food sitting out. Then I went to bed and left the rest of the dishes in the sink. I also didn’t clean the counter or the stovetop. Why? Because I was tired and I just… didn’t feel like it.

I did the rest of the clean up when I got up this morning. I didn’t leave the kitchen clean up unfinished as part of some nefarious plot to get my husband to do it for me. I just didn’t feel like doing it last night. If I had come downstairs and he had started admonishing me for not finishing up last night I would have been p!ssed. But he would never speak to me (or about me) that way, because we love and respect each other, and most importantly, we are both adults and neither one of us gets to be “in charge” in this relationship.

But good luck with your unhappy marriages, ladies. I’m sure every problem is always your husband’s fault.

Great. The difference is that you did 80% of the cleanup and did the rest in the morning. These guys do 10% (if that much) AND fail to distinguish between the tasks that can be left for later (some rinsed dishes in the sink) and those that snowball and are unpleasant for others (leaving food out).

FWIW I think a lot of reasonable people wouldn’t want to leave dirty counters at night but it sounds like you and your spouse are aligned on that. If you weren’t aligned then in a healthy functional relationship there would be discussion and compromise about it.