Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This will be a long post, bear with me if you feel like it.

Let me begin by telling you about my high school best friend. (FWIW: We are still best friends)

She lives in an exurban, coastal town in a blue state. She is mostly vegetarian, was a vegan for a time. Buys all her food from a local organic farmers market, gets eggs from her neighbor's free range chickens. Has an organic vegetable garden. She uses a compost bucket, meticulously sorts through what can be composted, recycled, reused, tossed out. Her late father built the house she and her family (husband, elderly mother) live in, and they installed their own solar panels. During her walks on the beach, she always picks up litter, including the tiniest piece of plastic she might come across. She once stopped her walk to attempt to help free an injured dragonfly caught in some seaweed.
She collects cultures for fermented foods like saurkraut, makes her own kombucha. Her mother gathers herbs and such, sourcing the best natural health remedies to their knowledge. As a side gig (she's a high school literature teacher), she does massage therapy. She practices yoga, avoids products with too many artificial ingredients, prefers to cover up in the sun rather than use sunscreen because of its ingredients. Never uses any plastic bottles.

Anyways... 5-10 years ago, you might assume by these left, liberal-coded aesthetics, she would be somewhat of a progressive Democrat.
In fact, she is a Trump supporter, and pretty far right politically.

This decade, I have notice something bizarre that I am only beginning to understand: the connections between the MAGA right and the granola, hippie, back-to-nature cohort. So much of it still doesn't make sense: If you love nature, the environment, health, animals so much, why would you vote for the political party that wants to destroy so much of it?

Some attribute this phenomenon to horseshoe theory... look no farther than a sizeable collection of Bernie supporters that have turned into far-right MAGA influences: Tulsi Gabbard, Jimmy Dore, Jackson Hinkle, the Red Scare podcast to name a few.

My friend has never really fit into that category though. She's been right-leaning apolitical her whole life. The common thread is being anti-government. Think Laura Ingalls Wilder-type libertarian. I can live off the land, I don't need the government to tell me what to do. I can do it myself.
At the same time, people like my high school friend have a similar distaste for the influence of large corporations as they do to Big Government. She would often criticize the omnipresence of marketing, advertising, brand names everywhere, plus technology addiction. But she wouldn't go far as to denounce capitalism - her father was a small business owner. She viewed things from the perspective that small businesses could and should handle things on their own, that large corporations AND government regulation were always getting in the way. Plus, she always had a view that poor people aren't "owed" anything. If you can't afford to live in her upscale beach community, then too bad, don't expect government subsidized housing or any other kind of handout. But voluntary generosity and kindness are virtues.

It's obvious why this aesthetic shift... "crunchy granola hippie Yoga moms" shifted from vagely leftwing to MAGA in 2020: Covid and vaccines. My friend believes in natural remedies first and has never been vaccinated, at least not for covid or the annual flu. And she, like others, have never forgiven Democratic-run governments for what they believe is severe overreach during the early stages of the pandemic. I don't need to explain this further.

2020 was the tipping point for many people like my friend and others, including some that may have been vaguely left-leaning, if not all-out Bernie supporters, to become all in on MAGA, rightwing populism.
Conservative, right, and MAGA are "counterculture."
Democrat, liberal, and especially, Biden are mainstream, corporate, corrupt, and value only obedience and submission. They are now "The Man."

Of course I can poke a bazillion holes in this narrative, but that doesn't matter. This is what they believe. And it's so frustrating, because there are a ton of issues that I would actually agree with them on. Take my friend for instance: we agree that people and corporations pollute too much, that animals should be cared for, that microplastics are a problem, that we fund too much war, that people are too addicted to technology. But the counter-"Narrative" narrative is that the Democrats now represent the toxic, elite marriage of Big Government, Big Tech, Hollywood, the Military-Industrial Complex, and everything that's bad, and that the simple, wholesome people living off the land are what The Left wants to stomp out.

You friend sounds like she's a critical think that deals in logic, not sure the same can be said about you.

"Democrat, liberal, and especially, Biden are mainstream, corporate, corrupt, and value only obedience and submission. They are now "The Man."

This statement is absolutely true and the dims have been exposed, you not believing it is telling. You are a lefty sycophant.

Anonymous wrote:OP back, appreciate the engagement, now addressing some counterpoints.

First, I understand criticism of the Democrats and agree with a lot of what people have to say. Just as I understand how opposing Biden and the Democrats is now the "cool, counterculture" position to be in. The Democratic Party leadership and the issues they get embroiled in are stale and uninspiring, and the big issues they campaign in like "preserving our democracy" (what happened to the voting rights bill?) "protecting women's right to choose" (why did we never codify Roe in congress when we could?) and all progressive economic proposals get watered down to nothing. What they have left is, get in line, beat Trump, I'm not Trump. So I can definitely see how the Democratic/liberal/left can be seen as uncool, stodgy, rigid, rule-followers.

What I don't get is how the right seems to uncritically follow Trump. If your ideology is based around being contrarian, being skeptical of government and authority, then why this creepy reverence of Trump? Why the cult following? Even if I didn't have any opinion on Trump it would still be weird. The closest anyone has come to explaining this to me is "we love him because you hate him!" Not exactly a sophisticated thought process.
Likewise, if you hate Big Tech, then why does the right love Elon Musk? Because he trolls in their favor, that's it?
They think Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos and of course George Soros are the evil cabal of billionaires, but Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and Trump are the good guys, the truthtellers, the heroes? Is this not cognitive dissonance at least? The way I see it: None of the billionaires care about you. Stop worshipping idols, on any side.

I wrote this post to show people how I'm trying to figure out the 2020s-era New Right. Out of pure curiosity to some extent, but also believe it or not, out of love. As I said I'm still best friends with this person I described. We have a lot more in common and we realize that. The main difference is she is just OVER government involvement in almost anything (she probably likes her local councilpeople who are Democrats, to a certain extent, except maybe not on zoning issues), and I still want to believe in good smart government, though it certainly needs an overhaul of its priorities. I would like a better say in how my tax dollars are being used, she would rather not pay any taxes and just take care of things herself. She supports Trump, even after being disgusted by him at first (said he was a narcissistic clown), she's not full-on cultish MAGA but gives him way more benefits of the doubt simply because the media tells her not to and she knows she distrusts the mainstream media and thinks they were too hysterical during his first term and never gave him a chance. I am probably voting for Biden if that's who we're stuck with, I can't stand Trump, but I don't love the Democrats either, I think the government has the potential to do a lot of good things but very few people in power are willing to do so. There are some things we just disagree on and that's fine. There are things I can understand where she's coming from, and there are things that just... don't make sense.

How can someone who values a critical eye, healthy skepticism, distrust of authority, support someone with such a mass uncritical cult following?
How can someone who loves beauty, peace, the natural world, caring for helpless living things, support someone who is so boorish, embodies the Ugly American stereotype, is so disrespectful to so many different kinds of people (especially women), and is just ugly and selfish?
How can someone have distrust in Big Corporations and love the environment, but also want to take away the regulations that are supposed to prevent big industry from releasing pollutants into our air and water and land? I understand opposing regulations from a small business point of view, and it would be great if we could reach some kind of agreement about smart environmental regulations for big corporations while giving small businesses more leeway. But the knee-jerk reaction to anything government gets in the way.

I wrote these long posts really because I want to understand people more. I wish a MAGA Trump supporter would engage in a similar dialogue. I know that not all Trump supporters are mouth-breathing confederate flag-waving gun-toting obese rednecks in coal-rolling pickuptrucks who eat red meat all day. And I know you know that the left is not all Biden-worshipping "HOA Karen" types wearing pink pussyhats all day, nor are we all overweight screeching genderqueer pink-haired, tattooed, septum-pierced, crybabies wearing masks alone in the car. I am fully aware of the cultural realignment on the right. I'd like the right to know that there is plenty of cultural realignment on the left and that we agree on more than we think. Let's learn more about what we don't understand about each other.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like your friend has lots in common with disillusioned Democrats like myself. We are far left progressive but are tired of the failures and empty promises of the Dem Party .

Much like the Reagan Democrats, the Trump Democrats are real. We are here and we are anti war and pro American labor not for cheap illegal migrant exploitation/labor or outsourcing . Donald Trump is a one man walking and talking labor Union and anti war activist for America and that’s just enough for some of us progressives to make him better than Biden or Hillary

LOL, rEaL. Wait till your organic strawberries cost $12 because there are no migrant workers. Wait till Trump adds more tariffs and you can’t afford basic necessities. And, wait till your husband is injured on the job because there are no safety measures because corps want you to keep buying, so they squeeze workers and safety measures. Think tainted Chinese baby formula. They can’t cut wages, so they use cardboard and fillers.

This sounds nice but grocery prices went up under Biden not Trump

Millions died under Trump, not Biden. I’m glad I’m here for the high grocery prices.

Excuse me? More people died under Biden than drumf from covid but at least we own it.

Nope, but thanks for playing. Far more people died of Covid under Trump AND in Republican areas. Article here with facts:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate

The bottom line from the article:

Since May 2021, people living in counties that voted heavily for Donald Trump during the last presidential election have been nearly three times as likely to die from COVID-19 as those who live in areas that went for now-President Biden.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like your friend has lots in common with disillusioned Democrats like myself. We are far left progressive but are tired of the failures and empty promises of the Dem Party .

Much like the Reagan Democrats, the Trump Democrats are real. We are here and we are anti war and pro American labor not for cheap illegal migrant exploitation/labor or outsourcing . Donald Trump is a one man walking and talking labor Union and anti war activist for America and that’s just enough for some of us progressives to make him better than Biden or Hillary

LOL, rEaL. Wait till your organic strawberries cost $12 because there are no migrant workers. Wait till Trump adds more tariffs and you can’t afford basic necessities. And, wait till your husband is injured on the job because there are no safety measures because corps want you to keep buying, so they squeeze workers and safety measures. Think tainted Chinese baby formula. They can’t cut wages, so they use cardboard and fillers.

This sounds nice but grocery prices went up under Biden not Trump

Millions died under Trump, not Biden. I’m glad I’m here for the high grocery prices.

Excuse me? More people died under Biden than drumf from covid but at least we own it.

Anonymous wrote:Ok I couldn’t get past first page. Please tell me how Trump/Vance and the GOP of all institutions are pro-union and not pro-corporations? How crunchy people would align themselves with a party who won’t even acknowledge climate change? Who is against regulations? Do you really think we buy this load of crap? I can kind of see how a frustrated Dem might leave the party bc of crime or issues in schools. Kind of. But bc you support unions??? And the working class? And you concluded the GOP is it? You think Elon et al who are supporting the GOP are pro-union? You need to try harder if you are going to pull the “former Dem, now Trump camp” bit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread already confirms what I have suspected for a long time. Bernie and Trump supporters are the same people. They hate what America is and want it to be something else and they don’t care what it becomes as long as it screws the establishment.

No, we (Trump supporters) love America and hate what you (the left) are trying to turn it into. And to op, I have a lot in common with your friend.

I am middle aged mom and have been on both sides of the political spectrum. I (unlike the left) have an open mind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread already confirms what I have suspected for a long time. Bernie and Trump supporters are the same people. They hate what America is and want it to be something else and they don’t care what it becomes as long as it screws the establishment.

+1. The current standard of living in the US is pretty high as far as clean water, clean air, safe food, pretty good medical care, pretty decent infrastructure, etc. All of that is a vestige of the 60's and 70's. I think we are moving towards a time where that won't be the norm and all these people are going to look around and wonder what happened.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like your friend has lots in common with disillusioned Democrats like myself. We are far left progressive but are tired of the failures and empty promises of the Dem Party .

Much like the Reagan Democrats, the Trump Democrats are real. We are here and we are anti war and pro American labor not for cheap illegal migrant exploitation/labor or outsourcing . Donald Trump is a one man walking and talking labor Union and anti war activist for America and that’s just enough for some of us progressives to make him better than Biden or Hillary

LOL, rEaL. Wait till your organic strawberries cost $12 because there are no migrant workers. Wait till Trump adds more tariffs and you can’t afford basic necessities. And, wait till your husband is injured on the job because there are no safety measures because corps want you to keep buying, so they squeeze workers and safety measures. Think tainted Chinese baby formula. They can’t cut wages, so they use cardboard and fillers.

This sounds nice but grocery prices went up under Biden not Trump

Millions died under Trump, not Biden. I’m glad I’m here for the high grocery prices.

Anonymous wrote:This will be a long post, bear with me if you feel like it.

Let me begin by telling you about my high school best friend. (FWIW: We are still best friends)

She lives in an exurban, coastal town in a blue state. She is mostly vegetarian, was a vegan for a time. Buys all her food from a local organic farmers market, gets eggs from her neighbor's free range chickens. Has an organic vegetable garden. She uses a compost bucket, meticulously sorts through what can be composted, recycled, reused, tossed out. Her late father built the house she and her family (husband, elderly mother) live in, and they installed their own solar panels. During her walks on the beach, she always picks up litter, including the tiniest piece of plastic she might come across. She once stopped her walk to attempt to help free an injured dragonfly caught in some seaweed.
She collects cultures for fermented foods like saurkraut, makes her own kombucha. Her mother gathers herbs and such, sourcing the best natural health remedies to their knowledge. As a side gig (she's a high school literature teacher), she does massage therapy. She practices yoga, avoids products with too many artificial ingredients, prefers to cover up in the sun rather than use sunscreen because of its ingredients. Never uses any plastic bottles.

Anyways... 5-10 years ago, you might assume by these left, liberal-coded aesthetics, she would be somewhat of a progressive Democrat.
In fact, she is a Trump supporter, and pretty far right politically.

This decade, I have notice something bizarre that I am only beginning to understand: the connections between the MAGA right and the granola, hippie, back-to-nature cohort. So much of it still doesn't make sense: If you love nature, the environment, health, animals so much, why would you vote for the political party that wants to destroy so much of it?

Some attribute this phenomenon to horseshoe theory... look no farther than a sizeable collection of Bernie supporters that have turned into far-right MAGA influences: Tulsi Gabbard, Jimmy Dore, Jackson Hinkle, the Red Scare podcast to name a few.

My friend has never really fit into that category though. She's been right-leaning apolitical her whole life. The common thread is being anti-government. Think Laura Ingalls Wilder-type libertarian. I can live off the land, I don't need the government to tell me what to do. I can do it myself.
At the same time, people like my high school friend have a similar distaste for the influence of large corporations as they do to Big Government. She would often criticize the omnipresence of marketing, advertising, brand names everywhere, plus technology addiction. But she wouldn't go far as to denounce capitalism - her father was a small business owner. She viewed things from the perspective that small businesses could and should handle things on their own, that large corporations AND government regulation were always getting in the way. Plus, she always had a view that poor people aren't "owed" anything. If you can't afford to live in her upscale beach community, then too bad, don't expect government subsidized housing or any other kind of handout. But voluntary generosity and kindness are virtues.

It's obvious why this aesthetic shift... "crunchy granola hippie Yoga moms" shifted from vagely leftwing to MAGA in 2020: Covid and vaccines. My friend believes in natural remedies first and has never been vaccinated, at least not for covid or the annual flu. And she, like others, have never forgiven Democratic-run governments for what they believe is severe overreach during the early stages of the pandemic. I don't need to explain this further.

2020 was the tipping point for many people like my friend and others, including some that may have been vaguely left-leaning, if not all-out Bernie supporters, to become all in on MAGA, rightwing populism.
Conservative, right, and MAGA are "counterculture."
Democrat, liberal, and especially, Biden are mainstream, corporate, corrupt, and value only obedience and submission. They are now "The Man."

Of course I can poke a bazillion holes in this narrative, but that doesn't matter. This is what they believe. And it's so frustrating, because there are a ton of issues that I would actually agree with them on. Take my friend for instance: we agree that people and corporations pollute too much, that animals should be cared for, that microplastics are a problem, that we fund too much war, that people are too addicted to technology. But the counter-"Narrative" narrative is that the Democrats now represent the toxic, elite marriage of Big Government, Big Tech, Hollywood, the Military-Industrial Complex, and everything that's bad, and that the simple, wholesome people living off the land are what The Left wants to stomp out.

Anonymous wrote:This thread already confirms what I have suspected for a long time. Bernie and Trump supporters are the same people. They hate what America is and want it to be something else and they don’t care what it becomes as long as it screws the establishment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your post was interesting OP. But one statement caught my eye.

“If you love nature, the environment, health, animals so much, why would you vote for the political party that wants to destroy so much of it?”


You are wrong. Republicans don’t want to destroy the environment. Just because we don’t buy into the green new deal, or believe in giving massive subsidies to EV companies and EV owners, or don’t believe in abandoning fossil fuels for energy sources that are far less reliable and efficient and more expensive in the long run, this doesn’t mean we don’t value the environment and want to protect it.

dp.. drilling for oil is counter to an environmentalist's position. Rs don't believe climate change is man made, hence, why they continue to drill drill drill and support carbon emitting ICE over EVs.

The type of person that OP described is very much a "pull yourself by your bootstrap" libertarian who wants to live off the land, but they don't seem to understand that the land and water and air would be polluted if we let Rs have their way in terms of regulations, or lack thereof.

I'm not a progressive liberal, but I think we need some regulation to protect our environment for the future, not to mention our food supply.

As for jobs, real capitalism means that corporations should be allowed to offshore their jobs. Trump and MAGA don't agree with that, and that is why they are not real Rs; they are populists. People complain about inflation, but if we manufactured everything, and also wanted these workers to have a living wage, the prices of goods and services would go through the roof.

Ask Trump if he thinks corporations should be regulated in terms of pricing and wages, because that is the only way to increase wages and control the cost of goods.

The US has the biggest gap in wages between executives and employees, which is causing the inequity that we see in our society. Ask Trump if we should regulate closing that gap.

They are "populists" but are being funded by the billionaires and big corporations. Guess what they will want? Tax cuts and grow their own wealth. Guess who pays for it? All the "little people"

This is the dichotomy. MAGAs think that Trump is on their side, and not the side of corporations, but almost every policy he supports helps the corporations: from tax cuts to getting rid of regulations. When he gave corporations those tax cuts, all of those CEOs told the Trump administration that they were not going to hire more Americans with those tax cuts. I started a thread on here when this was happening that those corporations would use the tax cuts to buy back stocks, and I was right. I've worked in the corporate world for decades, and saw this happen over and over.

Corporations aren't in it for the little guys. They are there to make money, and if you give them tax cut and remove regulations, they are not going to help the little guy. They will enrich themselves. Some MAGA on here said that was fine, because a strong stock market would benefit everyone (not really given the wealthiest 10% own 93% of the stock market). So, I guess some of the MAGA are fine with corporations enriching the 1% as long as the rest of us get some crumbs, and the poorest get nothing, certainly not a wage increase, but they'd be hit harder under a Trump admin because MAGA want to kill all types of social welfare programs.