Anonymous wrote:"It’s been a while since top students could assume they’d get into top schools, but today, they get rejected more often than not."

So then all these top students are going to "second-rate" schools. But the thing that makes schools top-rate is mostly the students, which makes those second-rate schools ... top.

The teaching at most colleges is going to be good, because there's a surplus of good academics. So if you go to a school with many classmates who are smart, engaged, and motivated, you're probably going to end up with a good education, whether that's a top 10 school or a top 50 or even top 100 school.

I agree with Princeton Review - there are 300 to 400 good colleges and universities in the U.S.

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Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good and covered all bases, except one, that I continue to rant about.

Part of the reason there is so much competition for the top schools is because so-called elite employers only recruit from them. We need companies to see that there are tons of bright students everywhere. Just look at the girl profiled in the article who is clearly smart and likely has a ton of grit. She's going to Hunter College where no investment bank or MBB would ever look to hire from. Until that mindset is broken, things will not change.

Until the mindset of “only elite employers for my kid” mindset changes, things will not change.

THis 1000%

Majority of kids majoring in business or finance or math or whatever, do not have a plan to work in investment banking or MBB. Typically that desire is reserved for rich kids who grew up with parents who do that work or who live in NYC area and know people who do that. But few 18yo say "I want to be a high powered IB on Wall Street when I grow up"

Every male interested in business in our graduating class’s non-DMV private does…maybe it’s a bubble? But yes they def do. And have the linked in profiles to match along with Ivy or T20 admits.

I would bet most don’t know what the job actually entails. It sounds glamorous and pays well…but it’s mind numbing and basically corporate hazing for two years and 100 hour work weeks.

I would encourage them to pay attention to AI. Banks are starting to use it and the big ones believe it could displace 90% of analyst positions within 3-5 years.

Are t you usually interviewing for an entry level job bc of where it leads? Not the job as the end all be all?

Probably 50% of the kids in my analyst class quit within a year. Lots of abisive personalities driving people to literally hospitalization from exhaustion (and then firing the person when the returnee to work). Telling you Friday at 6pm you need to assemble a merger pitch deck and model for a Monday 9am meeting only to come in on Monday and decide they don’t want to pitch it after all.

Maybe it’s better now…but I doubt it.

It’s also insane because parents make it so

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean forget elite schools. The insanity goes beyond the Ivy League. Flagship state schools are very, very competitive.

This is what’s scary to me. When we are telling kids with basically perfect GPAs who took all the hardest classes at their school “you might not get into Maryland” there is something wrong with the system. The top state college should be able to accept and educate our state’s top students.

That is what it’s doing. It’s just that the state has more top students than seats available.

Anonymous wrote:Seems about right to me:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/opinion/college-admissions-applications.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ok0.G9-F.xk2gFRSMz5Td&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I love how they dispose of the BS that goes by the so-called "holistic" admissions idea - something that unfortunately some DCUM posters seem to believe in:

Admissions as currently practiced is designed to let schools whose budgets run on billions of taxpayers dollars do whatever they want. Consider Stanford’s guidance to applicants: “In a holistic review, we seek to understand how you, as a whole person, would grow, contribute and thrive at Stanford, and how Stanford would, in turn, be changed by you.” This perfectly encapsulates the current system, because it is meaningless.

Well said.

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Anonymous wrote:If the so-called elite employers think they're doing well recruiting from a certain set of schools, what incentive do they have to spend more time/money looking elsewhere for (in their mind) marginal value?

None which is why the insanity will continue. The name of the school does not matter for some degrees, and I think most people understand it, but the name on the degree is the only thing that matters for certain professions as much as people insist otherwise. For all of the Barista jokes, who has a better shot at a hedge fund job- a lax player with an english degree from Princeton or someone with a 4.0 in business from Towson?

Trick question. They both have low odds. Hedge funds are hiring the lax player's classmate majoring in something more suitable for the job.

lol -- they are not. From the right school PE, Wall Street, and other high end employers could care less what the major is. English Major from Princeton gets the job.

Neither is getting the job. They are recruiting business majors/MBAs from NYU, Harvard, and UPenn. Of course, there are exceptions. Everyone knows that rich kids with connections get into all sorts of places they don’t deserve to be, like Princeton and Wall Street. But no, Wall Street likes people with business degrees and MBAs.

At the analyst level, accounting, business, and finance are by far the most popular majors for Wall Streeters (46%). Economics follows in second place (26%) Guess how many humanities majors? 5%

The same majors are even more common among associates on Wall Street. accounting, business, and finance (55%). Economics (19%). Humanities falls to 4%.

Accounting, business, and finance majors are the clear majority at the vice president level, too. 54% and 19% for economics

The trend holds all the way to the director level, where accounting, business, and finance majors make up 60% of jobs held. In second place, economics comes in at 21%. Humanities falls to 1% at the Director level.

I guess PP’s English PhD husband and the large number of English majors working with him (at the most prestigious investment banking firm, natch) make up a large portion of that number.


https://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-common-college-major-on-wall-street-2015-11

Anonymous wrote:When we are telling kids with basically perfect GPAs who took all the hardest classes at their school “you might not get into Maryland” there is something wrong with the system.

Demand has dramatically increased, supply has not. It's really that simple.

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Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good and covered all bases, except one, that I continue to rant about.

Part of the reason there is so much competition for the top schools is because so-called elite employers only recruit from them. We need companies to see that there are tons of bright students everywhere. Just look at the girl profiled in the article who is clearly smart and likely has a ton of grit. She's going to Hunter College where no investment bank or MBB would ever look to hire from. Until that mindset is broken, things will not change.

Until the mindset of “only elite employers for my kid” mindset changes, things will not change.

THis 1000%

Majority of kids majoring in business or finance or math or whatever, do not have a plan to work in investment banking or MBB. Typically that desire is reserved for rich kids who grew up with parents who do that work or who live in NYC area and know people who do that. But few 18yo say "I want to be a high powered IB on Wall Street when I grow up"

You might be surprised. I have a 18 year old male relative from a small city in the middle of the country—definitely not rich, more like “no, we can’t go to chipotle until after oayday”—and all he wants to do is investment banking in NY. He’s never even been to the east coast. I don’t know where kids are getting these ideas but I think with the internet, these things are no longer a secret shared by the UES jet set.

Very very true. I see this too.

Anonymous wrote:I mean forget elite schools. The insanity goes beyond the Ivy League. Flagship state schools are very, very competitive.

This is what’s scary to me. When we are telling kids with basically perfect GPAs who took all the hardest classes at their school “you might not get into Maryland” there is something wrong with the system. The top state college should be able to accept and educate our state’s top students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good and covered all bases, except one, that I continue to rant about.

Part of the reason there is so much competition for the top schools is because so-called elite employers only recruit from them. We need companies to see that there are tons of bright students everywhere. Just look at the girl profiled in the article who is clearly smart and likely has a ton of grit. She's going to Hunter College where no investment bank or MBB would ever look to hire from. Until that mindset is broken, things will not change.

Until the mindset of “only elite employers for my kid” mindset changes, things will not change.

THis 1000%

Majority of kids majoring in business or finance or math or whatever, do not have a plan to work in investment banking or MBB. Typically that desire is reserved for rich kids who grew up with parents who do that work or who live in NYC area and know people who do that. But few 18yo say "I want to be a high powered IB on Wall Street when I grow up"

You might be surprised. I have a 18 year old male relative from a small city in the middle of the country—definitely not rich, more like “no, we can’t go to chipotle until after oayday”—and all he wants to do is investment banking in NY. He’s never even been to the east coast. I don’t know where kids are getting these ideas but I think with the internet, these things are no longer a secret shared by the UES jet set.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the so-called elite employers think they're doing well recruiting from a certain set of schools, what incentive do they have to spend more time/money looking elsewhere for (in their mind) marginal value?

None which is why the insanity will continue. The name of the school does not matter for some degrees, and I think most people understand it, but the name on the degree is the only thing that matters for certain professions as much as people insist otherwise. For all of the Barista jokes, who has a better shot at a hedge fund job- a lax player with an english degree from Princeton or someone with a 4.0 in business from Towson?

Trick question. They both have low odds. Hedge funds are hiring the lax player's classmate majoring in something more suitable for the job.

lol -- they are not. From the right school PE, Wall Street, and other high end employers could care less what the major is. English Major from Princeton gets the job.

LOL no, for quant jobs hedge funds are hiring math/CS/econ students from HYP over any English major from Princeton.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The smart hungry kid will succeed no matter where they attend college.

The smart hungry kid will achieve success more quickly at a T20 college. They'll get there too from other schools, but it may take a few to several years longer.

There is always this argument: the smart hungry kid can make it from anywhere and the other you have to go to an elite school. Both are true. Meaning you can make it from anywhere but the path is hard. An elite school offers you pathways that other schools just do not have. You will never see them at state schools. More pathways. You do not need to take them but they are there. Both sides of the coin are true. Yes you can make it from anywhere and there more pathways to make it at elite schools.

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Anonymous wrote:My Senior is in a major where the school matters—sigh. So we are forking over the $86k/yr over in-state. My sophomore is in my major where it really doesn’t matter- just a solid state school is fine.

The cost of higher education is ridiculous. Everyone should be angry at the industry that escalated prices so high—Fed govt loan industry.

Could you kindly expand on this? For what majors do you think the school doesn't matter?

+1. Not true. Unfortunately.

Education and nursing

Any classic pre-med major (bio, chem, biochem …) I work with ~75 young surgeons at a premier teaching hospital that you all know. Undergrad institutions matter only very marginally, judging from the bios on the wall here. For timeline reference, these surgeons are residents and fellows. (I have no clue where the middle aged attendings went to undergrad)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good and covered all bases, except one, that I continue to rant about.

Part of the reason there is so much competition for the top schools is because so-called elite employers only recruit from them. We need companies to see that there are tons of bright students everywhere. Just look at the girl profiled in the article who is clearly smart and likely has a ton of grit. She's going to Hunter College where no investment bank or MBB would ever look to hire from. Until that mindset is broken, things will not change.

Until the mindset of “only elite employers for my kid” mindset changes, things will not change.

THis 1000%

Majority of kids majoring in business or finance or math or whatever, do not have a plan to work in investment banking or MBB. Typically that desire is reserved for rich kids who grew up with parents who do that work or who live in NYC area and know people who do that. But few 18yo say "I want to be a high powered IB on Wall Street when I grow up"

Every male interested in business in our graduating class’s non-DMV private does…maybe it’s a bubble? But yes they def do. And have the linked in profiles to match along with Ivy or T20 admits.

I would bet most don’t know what the job actually entails. It sounds glamorous and pays well…but it’s mind numbing and basically corporate hazing for two years and 100 hour work weeks.

I would encourage them to pay attention to AI. Banks are starting to use it and the big ones believe it could displace 90% of analyst positions within 3-5 years.

Are t you usually interviewing for an entry level job bc of where it leads? Not the job as the end all be all?

Anonymous wrote:The elite schools are basically a harry potter sorting hat for IB, Big Law etc.. and what they really are doing is creating a net work among the already rich/elite kids. Middle class smart kids may get in but very few have the contacts and skills to net work themselves up that high. The richer you are the less relevant your major needs to be

I don’t know about finance but that’s not true for big law. My spouse and I are both very very middle class kids who went to Ivy or similar colleges by working our butte off in HS and nailing the SAT (thank you Waldenbooks for that prep book!), getting great grades there and great lsat score to jump into the best law schools in the country then federal appellate clerkships. Biglaw is filled with people like that. The rich kids that aren’t working and just parlaying connections are not ending up at the top firms at least in DC. They may do better in regional markets like Richmond if their families are regional power brokers.

I don’t work in finance but at least some of the very well off finance folks I know are children of immigrants who I don’t think come from elite backgrounds…just super smart who work their butts off. The ricch family people I know are in commercial real estate or individual asset management.