Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

In other words if your have adhd or add you need a very simple life and lifestyle to not flip out or shut down. Like minimal stuff, one kid or less, same job, stay at home.

DP, my wife's mental illness definitely pushed us to have only one kid. Because of her severe depression (technically bipolar but the manic side is generally very controlled) and anxiety, I know that more than 50% of the load is going to be on me. There are times I'm going to have to handle all the work of parenting either because she's actually hospitalized or just because she's shut down. One kid makes that much easier than two or three logistically.

Why just mental illness? What about physical health, debt amount, alcoholism, credit score and MIL's meddling level?

Would you be okay if mental health screen is clear?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

In other words if your have adhd or add you need a very simple life and lifestyle to not flip out or shut down. Like minimal stuff, one kid or less, same job, stay at home.

MIL was/is a SAHM with quite serious ADHD although nobody knew it at the time. She's the sweetest person in the world, but whenever we visit the dinners and house cleaning are 100% on FIL. When I asked XDH how she parented, and whether she ever set expectations re homework etc (you should see some of his siblings), he said she mostly sat in a rocker and smoked.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

No, the inattentive people still forgot to plant or harvest the crops on time, or stay off the train tracks. Those types were relegated to the sidelines and lived with their parents forever. They didn’t have computer jobs, order delivery and only interact with others online.

+1. I was doing some research about America right after the revolution and there was a woman, in Alexandria, from a prominent family who married a guy, also from a prominent family (because these are the ones who get written up and/or leave letter records) was apparently a complete flake. I'm forgetting their names. But after a few years he left her alone in their Alexandria house to pursue all kind of mad schemes and failed investments while she raised the kids alone and was constantly strapped for money. Some of the local letter writers (period sources) were always mentioning this woman's difficulties and how to help her.

It seems like there are two sides to this debate...

1) Those who think there were always red flags and if you miss them you're either in denial or just immature
2) Those who have actually either witnessed someone change - like mental illness only expressing itself in midlife, or something like maybe undiagnosed ADHD that was either never really a problem when life was not that stressful before kids

I'm in the second camp. DHs was great when we first met in our early 30s, but slowly unravelled starting in his late 40s. It's like we got through the early baby years, but something changed in his biology around midlife. Now, in hindsight, some things do make sense about his family patterns, but only in hindsight.

For example, growing up, DH's family basically only went on ski and beach vacations (and they actually owned a beach house), while my family's vacations were a little more adventurous. This makes sense... they are rigid, and needed routine, familiarity, control over meals. However, would "owned a beach house and went there every summer, and went skiing ever winter" be a red flag for you?

Also, one of his brothers was a little "off," kinda quirky I guess. And really just a little off, not a lot. I didn't really think much about it. He was married, had a normal job, and had a one year old baby, and his wife actually seemed nice, so no big red flags. His other brother had a not so great marriage, but his parent's marriage was (and still is) strong. It happens.

Also, at one point early in our marriage on a long car ride, his father mentioned his first cousin (the father's first cousin) had been institutionalized for bipolar in the 50s or 60s. That did kinda raise my eyebrows, but I don't think even DH knew about it at the time, and the father had since lost touch with the cousin. It's not like they were hiding it when we were dating.

I guess my point is, if you look backwards, there were probably signs, but there's no way to realize they were signs at the time. Also, I've known plenty of lovely people with a mentally ill family member, or parents that were abusive, alcoholics, divorced, the list goes on.... who are lovely people themselves and have made lovely DHs/DWs. It would be a shame to block all of those people off your dating pool. Marriage is a leap of faith. There is no way you can always have complete control over your future (and if you feel like you cannot cope with the feeling of uncertainty/not being completely in control, maybe you are the one who is the problem because this itself is a symptom of ASD/mental illness).

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

In other words if your have adhd or add you need a very simple life and lifestyle to not flip out or shut down. Like minimal stuff, one kid or less, same job, stay at home.

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

No, the inattentive people still forgot to plant or harvest the crops on time, or stay off the train tracks. Those types were relegated to the sidelines and lived with their parents forever. They didn’t have computer jobs, order delivery and only interact with others online.

Anonymous wrote:Finding out your spouse has autism after marriage? Lol, what? Or narcissism? Or OCD? Unless you are marrying someone you have known a few months or less -- which no one should be doing anyway -- you knew about these things before you said "I do."

People don't suddenly figure out two kids into a marriage that their spouse is self-involved with no social skills. They decide they could have done better when they are two kids into the marriage (which may or may not be true -- probably not) and start labeling/diagnosing and complaining on the internet and making drama in general (because they are likely not at par either).

You are wrong that you can always tell “you knew about these things” before marriage. Even if you have dated for awhile and even if you have lived w someone before marriage, you do NOT always know that person has autism, is a narcissist, is abusive, etc. I know it seems like you should be able to tell such big, important issues like that but some people are really really good at masking and/or are so manipulative that they can successfully trick someone into thinking they’re wonderful for months or even years before the truth comes out.

I have a wonderful spouse so I’m not talking from personal experience but I have seen several friends/family members get into relationships where everyone thought their partner was great until there came a point, usually after having kids and other big stresses of life, they weren’t. My BIL is one example. Everyone thought he was great, he was married for 10 years and had a 8 year old before it came out that he was a narcissistic sociopath who had been lying and manipulating not only his wife and kid but all his family members and friends the entire time. Everyone was totally shocked. My SIL, my BIL’s own parents and siblings and closest friends. No one had any idea the double life he was leading. He is very smart and was really good at tricking everyone.

Anonymous wrote:Family of origin.

My XW, her mom had schizophrenia. At the time I thought, eh what are the chances the daughter will go nuts too? Turns out it was 100%. But I thought that since she was 27 it would have manifested already if it was going to. Alas it manifested when she was 46 and we had two kids…

We have a schizophrenic in our family. It is more likely she was hiding it for years.

Anonymous wrote:I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

Completely agree. Whenever I am amidst a very simple culture overseas or even in the states I think about how many of these people would likely have mental health issues in our society.

I think we all also need to consider how literally crazy-making our modern culture is.

Mental illnesses can be triggered by the environment around a person. There's no telling who might be vulnerable to what situations and some personal relationships hurt instead of help.

I am constantly surprised by all the diagnoses on this board...2E children, Aspergers, ADHD, etc. etc. The talk of executive functioning coaches, etc.

How I feel/what I believe (as opposed to scientifically know) is that there are a lot of smart/brainy people whose brains were designed to succeed in an environment of scarcity. Scarce material things, scarce information, smaller groups of people to know and rely on long-term, relatively straightforward jobs where careful attention to detail might produce superior results, etc.

Now we live in a culture of abundance and many of us "smart people" can't handle the volumes of stuff, the amount of work it takes to optimize every decision, the vastly expanded social choices we have, and the greater specialization and complexity of our jobs. We also have created quite a lot of work-life balance issues for ourselves.

I see why a lot of people have trouble now that might have been perfectly fine running a farm in a small village 300 years ago.

Anonymous wrote:This is a great question. TBH, looking back, there were red flags. But I rationalized them and went ahead because I had poor judgment in my mid 20s.

Yep. Same in mid 30s with the judgment train (oh I’ll never get married better do it now) in full denial.

And as Chris Rock said when you first start dating you’re not even dating the person you’re dating their PR rep or front person. It takes time to truly know someone. Sometimes it’s unclear til after you’re married. It took me many years.

Anonymous wrote:Jumping off from the wife saying her husband does nothing to help at home, she has to remind him to shower and dress appropriately for work and didn't find out until after marriage and kids that he has depression and anxiety, etc. The truth is, there are a LOT of threads like this one - people finding out their spouse as autism or is narcissistic or OCD or a myriad of other big issues that if they knew about they may not have chosen to marry and/or procreate with this person.

Since the majority of us are not psychologists, how do we screen to make sure we're not marrying someone like this? What are the tell-tale signs that we were ignoring? Maybe this can help some of the people here who are dating to avoid an unhappy marriage down the line.

Pull out a phq9, ACES and GAD survey on second date.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference between mental illnesses and physical illnesses in many cases is that mentally ill people often refuse ANY treatment and are in complete denial because of the stigma, which leaves their illnesses to get worse, which makes the stigma of mental illness worse.

It’s a vicious cycle and I don’t blame anyone for avoiding it. My parents both had mental illness and it derailed everything in their lives.

Agree it’s sad. They have to want to put forth the effort to improve themselves. And then do it. All loved ones can do is make space for that to happen.

You realize that stigma, with this thread a s a perfect example, is part of what keeps people from proper mental health treatment?

It’s perfectly acceptable to engage in self care like diet, exercise, etc. flr diabetes, but engaging in self care like going to bed early, going to therapy, etc. are seen as weak or indulgent. Medications for psychiatric conditions have notoriously horrible side effects, if they work at all (which for a great percentage of people, they don’t).

It would be super great if people saw mental health issues as actual health issues, and not issues of laziness ans attitude. It would be great if medications and treatments worked as clearly for them as they do for many physical illnesses, but they don’t. Imagine if people had the understanding, empathy, grace and kindness when addressing mental illness that they do for physical illnesses. There’s be a lot more healing and a lot less pain.

No.

It’s the same as with alcoholics. They have to put their ego and image aside - which they have been lying and protecting at the expense of relationships for years- and drive the help process themselves.

You can get them the best therapist and psychiatrist in the country, but if all they do is show up, nod along, think everyone else if full of S, and do none of the advice, it’s over.