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Anonymous wrote:Of course. My ILs raised 6 kids in a medium sized town in the upper Midwest- FIL was a public school teacher, MIL worked PT (secretarial jobs) once all the kids were in school. Had a large but modest home on a piece of land, and 2 cars, lived frugally otherwise. Put all 6 kids through college- 4 did undergrad at the local state university and 2 chose the local community college instead (all lived at home while attending). Kids worked PT once teens if they wanted a car or expensive clothes etc. FIL retired at 58 with a full pension, MIL worked until 68 by choice (enjoyed her work after being home for so many years). As for timeframe, their 6 kids were all born in the 70s.

This story could happen today

No- not with current healthcare and college costs.

My daughter graduated college few years ago, went on full merits scholarship, engineering degree from top school. Was able to purchase the house for herself on her own salary without our help (starting salary was 6 digits), interest rate under 3%. Totally doable on one salary today.

So no student loans, no dependents, good salary and low interest rate (less than half of what it is today). Not quite “doable” by “todays” standards.

She did not vote for today's standards, the low rates and plenty of jobs was during Trump's presidency. Today kids will have a choice to vote in November if they want jobs and house.

Why make s**t up. The unemployment rate is as low as it has ever been and the stock market is at record highs. Interest rates were rock bottom through 2022. Your weak reference to politics is stupid.

You also are referring to a professional…not the average American…and your daughter is single, with no family and childcare costs.

She can easily afford childcare in DMV area even if her partner choose to be a staying at home parent. OP’s question was not about blue color jobs, her question was about anyone who works 9-5. I gave you an example that it is possible.

Literally, the post says can the "average" American afford the American Dream. Honestly, the answer is empirical.

1955
Median HH Income: $4,400 (primarily single earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $800 (18% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $600 (13.6% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $9,100 (107% of HHI)
Median Car Price (Ford): $2,000 (45.5% of HHI)

2023
Median HHI Income: $75,000 (majority two-earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $54,269 (72.4% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $11,505 (15.3% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $431,000 (475% of HHI)
Median Car Price: $48,000 (64% of HHI)

So, empirically...yes it is nearly impossible for the average 9-to-5er to achieve the American Dream on one-income.

Again, there is also a significant difference in how people saved and spent their $$$s over the generations. As an example, my father was expected to pay 100% of his college, even though his own father was actually college-educated and was a senior corporate executive. Now, he had come from nothing...but it wasn't that uncommon for college to be the kid's responsibility, knowing there were many, many options where the kid could work over Summers and the School year and pay for it with $0 student loans (not even sure student loans existed in the 1950s?).

Many people, especially who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s, had corporate pensions, so you weren't saving every extra nickel to pay for your own retirement.

No one is forced to go to Harvard and no one is forced to buy a house.

Thanks for those great insights...hence why UMD was included. However, it was more to show that back in the day there was very little meaningful difference in cost between Harvard and UMD.

Again, the thread is affording the American Dream. I guess if you define the American Dream as attending community college and renting forever, then you are good with things.

No need to be snide about community college.

--child of a CC professor.

CC is fine, but still, it is worth noting the little difference in cost for Harvard and UMD in the 50s and the difference now.

The analysis by the PP holds water, even if one rents forever (which again, isn't necessarily cheaper, esp. if you're a family, and then you don't have home equity as an asset), even if one goes to state school, even if one doesn't own a car (which then requires affording rent/housing near public transport access plus monthly cost of public transport), and most especially, accounting for the difference between having a guaranteed pension and pinching pennies in 401ks.

Not to mention that UC schools were free until the late 1960s and tuition was only $1,500/year in 1990. They are still a relatively good deal at $14,500 in-state tuition.

However, median HHI in 1990 was $36,000 in CA, so that was still only 4.2% of HHI. Today, Median CA HHI is $92,000, so it is 15.8% of HHI.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can have that right now with a working class job. I have relatives in Kentucky working at a major chain hotel who own their own home, and their kids went to college on scholarships. I have other relatives who own their own home in Damascus Md, working as fast food managers. Their son went to med school on loans. They moved there on purpose with a plan. They focused on launching their kids. Now the next generation are all professional high earners.

Anyone who is sound of mind and able bodied could attain the American dream. My opinion is that the major barrier for most people is that they haven't learned the value of delayed gratification and strategic planning.

You don’t realize you are actually proving the opposite.

In the 1950s, you didn’t need a scholarship to attend college. Even the most expensive still didn’t cost that much, and many top universities were free or nearly free.

Your examples above indicate that you need to take out lots of loans, hope for scholarships and live like a pauper (both parents BTW) just to provide what was easily provided by one income 50+ years ago.

That’s not really the definition of a “dream”.

My father needed a scholarship to attend a college in the late 1950s. He also worked numerous jobs to afford college. This was not uncommon among his working class demographic.

Yes, tuitions have soared. As have costs of homes generally but not in all areas of the country (my parents house would sell, adjusted for inflation, for about as much today as when they bought it 50 years ago). But it's also true that what people expect at college, fancy dorms, fancy athletic facilities, fancy dining services, are way different than what was expected in the 1950s when my dad lived all four years in his parent's 1 bedroom 900 sq ft house and took the bus to campus. And expectations of how big a house should be and how many bedrooms and bathrooms have also grown. The average sized house in 1950 was less than 1000 sq ft. Today it's over 2400 sq ft. Even though family size has decreased. If builders were still building smaller houses they'd be much less expensive, you can't disagree with that.

These issues require nuance to understand. Looking back nostalgically at at time when families of 5-10 people lived in small 1-2 bedroom, 1 bathroom houses is bizarre. Yes, those families lived on one salary. Who wants to live in such small housing today? Very few.

Wages at the lower end of the scale absolutely have not grown at enough pace with inflation. Compensation of CEOs and at the high end of the pay scale has skyrocketed to outrageous levels. Unions have lost their grip, though luckily may be making a comeback.

Wage extremism in both directions, high and low, does not do a society good.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Of course. My ILs raised 6 kids in a medium sized town in the upper Midwest- FIL was a public school teacher, MIL worked PT (secretarial jobs) once all the kids were in school. Had a large but modest home on a piece of land, and 2 cars, lived frugally otherwise. Put all 6 kids through college- 4 did undergrad at the local state university and 2 chose the local community college instead (all lived at home while attending). Kids worked PT once teens if they wanted a car or expensive clothes etc. FIL retired at 58 with a full pension, MIL worked until 68 by choice (enjoyed her work after being home for so many years). As for timeframe, their 6 kids were all born in the 70s.

This story could happen today

No- not with current healthcare and college costs.

My daughter graduated college few years ago, went on full merits scholarship, engineering degree from top school. Was able to purchase the house for herself on her own salary without our help (starting salary was 6 digits), interest rate under 3%. Totally doable on one salary today.

So no student loans, no dependents, good salary and low interest rate (less than half of what it is today). Not quite “doable” by “todays” standards.

She did not vote for today's standards, the low rates and plenty of jobs was during Trump's presidency. Today kids will have a choice to vote in November if they want jobs and house.

Why make s**t up. The unemployment rate is as low as it has ever been and the stock market is at record highs. Interest rates were rock bottom through 2022. Your weak reference to politics is stupid.

You also are referring to a professional…not the average American…and your daughter is single, with no family and childcare costs.

She can easily afford childcare in DMV area even if her partner choose to be a staying at home parent. OP’s question was not about blue color jobs, her question was about anyone who works 9-5. I gave you an example that it is possible.

Literally, the post says can the "average" American afford the American Dream. Honestly, the answer is empirical.

1955
Median HH Income: $4,400 (primarily single earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $800 (18% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $600 (13.6% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $9,100 (107% of HHI)
Median Car Price (Ford): $2,000 (45.5% of HHI)

2023
Median HHI Income: $75,000 (majority two-earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $54,269 (72.4% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $11,505 (15.3% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $431,000 (475% of HHI)
Median Car Price: $48,000 (64% of HHI)

So, empirically...yes it is nearly impossible for the average 9-to-5er to achieve the American Dream on one-income.

Again, there is also a significant difference in how people saved and spent their $$$s over the generations. As an example, my father was expected to pay 100% of his college, even though his own father was actually college-educated and was a senior corporate executive. Now, he had come from nothing...but it wasn't that uncommon for college to be the kid's responsibility, knowing there were many, many options where the kid could work over Summers and the School year and pay for it with $0 student loans (not even sure student loans existed in the 1950s?).

Many people, especially who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s, had corporate pensions, so you weren't saving every extra nickel to pay for your own retirement.

No one is forced to go to Harvard and no one is forced to buy a house.

Buying a house is a key component of the American Dream

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. My ILs raised 6 kids in a medium sized town in the upper Midwest- FIL was a public school teacher, MIL worked PT (secretarial jobs) once all the kids were in school. Had a large but modest home on a piece of land, and 2 cars, lived frugally otherwise. Put all 6 kids through college- 4 did undergrad at the local state university and 2 chose the local community college instead (all lived at home while attending). Kids worked PT once teens if they wanted a car or expensive clothes etc. FIL retired at 58 with a full pension, MIL worked until 68 by choice (enjoyed her work after being home for so many years). As for timeframe, their 6 kids were all born in the 70s.

This story could happen today

No- not with current healthcare and college costs.

My daughter graduated college few years ago, went on full merits scholarship, engineering degree from top school. Was able to purchase the house for herself on her own salary without our help (starting salary was 6 digits), interest rate under 3%. Totally doable on one salary today.

So no student loans, no dependents, good salary and low interest rate (less than half of what it is today). Not quite “doable” by “todays” standards.

She did not vote for today's standards, the low rates and plenty of jobs was during Trump's presidency. Today kids will have a choice to vote in November if they want jobs and house.

Why make s**t up. The unemployment rate is as low as it has ever been and the stock market is at record highs. Interest rates were rock bottom through 2022. Your weak reference to politics is stupid.

You also are referring to a professional…not the average American…and your daughter is single, with no family and childcare costs.

She can easily afford childcare in DMV area even if her partner choose to be a staying at home parent. OP’s question was not about blue color jobs, her question was about anyone who works 9-5. I gave you an example that it is possible.

Literally, the post says can the "average" American afford the American Dream. Honestly, the answer is empirical.

1955
Median HH Income: $4,400 (primarily single earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $800 (18% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $600 (13.6% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $9,100 (107% of HHI)
Median Car Price (Ford): $2,000 (45.5% of HHI)

2023
Median HHI Income: $75,000 (majority two-earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $54,269 (72.4% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $11,505 (15.3% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $431,000 (475% of HHI)
Median Car Price: $48,000 (64% of HHI)

So, empirically...yes it is nearly impossible for the average 9-to-5er to achieve the American Dream on one-income.

Again, there is also a significant difference in how people saved and spent their $$$s over the generations. As an example, my father was expected to pay 100% of his college, even though his own father was actually college-educated and was a senior corporate executive. Now, he had come from nothing...but it wasn't that uncommon for college to be the kid's responsibility, knowing there were many, many options where the kid could work over Summers and the School year and pay for it with $0 student loans (not even sure student loans existed in the 1950s?).

Many people, especially who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s, had corporate pensions, so you weren't saving every extra nickel to pay for your own retirement.

No one is forced to go to Harvard and no one is forced to buy a house.

Thanks for those great insights...hence why UMD was included. However, it was more to show that back in the day there was very little meaningful difference in cost between Harvard and UMD.

Again, the thread is affording the American Dream. I guess if you define the American Dream as attending community college and renting forever, then you are good with things.

No need to be snide about community college.

--child of a CC professor.

CC is fine, but still, it is worth noting the little difference in cost for Harvard and UMD in the 50s and the difference now.

The analysis by the PP holds water, even if one rents forever (which again, isn't necessarily cheaper, esp. if you're a family, and then you don't have home equity as an asset), even if one goes to state school, even if one doesn't own a car (which then requires affording rent/housing near public transport access plus monthly cost of public transport), and most especially, accounting for the difference between having a guaranteed pension and pinching pennies in 401ks.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, happened all over America in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

No it didn't. Most black families could not afford to have one stay at home parent.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. My ILs raised 6 kids in a medium sized town in the upper Midwest- FIL was a public school teacher, MIL worked PT (secretarial jobs) once all the kids were in school. Had a large but modest home on a piece of land, and 2 cars, lived frugally otherwise. Put all 6 kids through college- 4 did undergrad at the local state university and 2 chose the local community college instead (all lived at home while attending). Kids worked PT once teens if they wanted a car or expensive clothes etc. FIL retired at 58 with a full pension, MIL worked until 68 by choice (enjoyed her work after being home for so many years). As for timeframe, their 6 kids were all born in the 70s.

This story could happen today

No- not with current healthcare and college costs.

My daughter graduated college few years ago, went on full merits scholarship, engineering degree from top school. Was able to purchase the house for herself on her own salary without our help (starting salary was 6 digits), interest rate under 3%. Totally doable on one salary today.

So no student loans, no dependents, good salary and low interest rate (less than half of what it is today). Not quite “doable” by “todays” standards.

She did not vote for today's standards, the low rates and plenty of jobs was during Trump's presidency. Today kids will have a choice to vote in November if they want jobs and house.

Why make s**t up. The unemployment rate is as low as it has ever been and the stock market is at record highs. Interest rates were rock bottom through 2022. Your weak reference to politics is stupid.

You also are referring to a professional…not the average American…and your daughter is single, with no family and childcare costs.

She can easily afford childcare in DMV area even if her partner choose to be a staying at home parent. OP’s question was not about blue color jobs, her question was about anyone who works 9-5. I gave you an example that it is possible.

Literally, the post says can the "average" American afford the American Dream. Honestly, the answer is empirical.

1955
Median HH Income: $4,400 (primarily single earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $800 (18% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $600 (13.6% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $9,100 (107% of HHI)
Median Car Price (Ford): $2,000 (45.5% of HHI)

2023
Median HHI Income: $75,000 (majority two-earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $54,269 (72.4% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $11,505 (15.3% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $431,000 (475% of HHI)
Median Car Price: $48,000 (64% of HHI)

So, empirically...yes it is nearly impossible for the average 9-to-5er to achieve the American Dream on one-income.

Again, there is also a significant difference in how people saved and spent their $$$s over the generations. As an example, my father was expected to pay 100% of his college, even though his own father was actually college-educated and was a senior corporate executive. Now, he had come from nothing...but it wasn't that uncommon for college to be the kid's responsibility, knowing there were many, many options where the kid could work over Summers and the School year and pay for it with $0 student loans (not even sure student loans existed in the 1950s?).

Many people, especially who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s, had corporate pensions, so you weren't saving every extra nickel to pay for your own retirement.

No one is forced to go to Harvard and no one is forced to buy a house.

Thanks for those great insights...hence why UMD was included. However, it was more to show that back in the day there was very little meaningful difference in cost between Harvard and UMD.

Again, the thread is affording the American Dream. I guess if you define the American Dream as attending community college and renting forever, then you are good with things.

No need to be snide about community college.

--child of a CC professor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. My ILs raised 6 kids in a medium sized town in the upper Midwest- FIL was a public school teacher, MIL worked PT (secretarial jobs) once all the kids were in school. Had a large but modest home on a piece of land, and 2 cars, lived frugally otherwise. Put all 6 kids through college- 4 did undergrad at the local state university and 2 chose the local community college instead (all lived at home while attending). Kids worked PT once teens if they wanted a car or expensive clothes etc. FIL retired at 58 with a full pension, MIL worked until 68 by choice (enjoyed her work after being home for so many years). As for timeframe, their 6 kids were all born in the 70s.

This story could happen today

No- not with current healthcare and college costs.

My daughter graduated college few years ago, went on full merits scholarship, engineering degree from top school. Was able to purchase the house for herself on her own salary without our help (starting salary was 6 digits), interest rate under 3%. Totally doable on one salary today.

So no student loans, no dependents, good salary and low interest rate (less than half of what it is today). Not quite “doable” by “todays” standards.

She did not vote for today's standards, the low rates and plenty of jobs was during Trump's presidency. Today kids will have a choice to vote in November if they want jobs and house.

Why make s**t up. The unemployment rate is as low as it has ever been and the stock market is at record highs. Interest rates were rock bottom through 2022. Your weak reference to politics is stupid.

You also are referring to a professional…not the average American…and your daughter is single, with no family and childcare costs.

She can easily afford childcare in DMV area even if her partner choose to be a staying at home parent. OP’s question was not about blue color jobs, her question was about anyone who works 9-5. I gave you an example that it is possible.

Literally, the post says can the "average" American afford the American Dream. Honestly, the answer is empirical.

1955
Median HH Income: $4,400 (primarily single earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $800 (18% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $600 (13.6% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $9,100 (107% of HHI)
Median Car Price (Ford): $2,000 (45.5% of HHI)

2023
Median HHI Income: $75,000 (majority two-earner household)
Harvard Tuition: $54,269 (72.4% of HHI)
UMD In-State Tuition: $11,505 (15.3% of HHI)
Median Home Price: $431,000 (475% of HHI)
Median Car Price: $48,000 (64% of HHI)

So, empirically...yes it is nearly impossible for the average 9-to-5er to achieve the American Dream on one-income.

Again, there is also a significant difference in how people saved and spent their $$$s over the generations. As an example, my father was expected to pay 100% of his college, even though his own father was actually college-educated and was a senior corporate executive. Now, he had come from nothing...but it wasn't that uncommon for college to be the kid's responsibility, knowing there were many, many options where the kid could work over Summers and the School year and pay for it with $0 student loans (not even sure student loans existed in the 1950s?).

Many people, especially who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s, had corporate pensions, so you weren't saving every extra nickel to pay for your own retirement.

No one is forced to go to Harvard and no one is forced to buy a house.

Thanks for those great insights...hence why UMD was included. However, it was more to show that back in the day there was very little meaningful difference in cost between Harvard and UMD.

Again, the thread is affording the American Dream. I guess if you define the American Dream as attending community college and renting forever, then you are good with things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course. My ILs raised 6 kids in a medium sized town in the upper Midwest- FIL was a public school teacher, MIL worked PT (secretarial jobs) once all the kids were in school. Had a large but modest home on a piece of land, and 2 cars, lived frugally otherwise. Put all 6 kids through college- 4 did undergrad at the local state university and 2 chose the local community college instead (all lived at home while attending). Kids worked PT once teens if they wanted a car or expensive clothes etc. FIL retired at 58 with a full pension, MIL worked until 68 by choice (enjoyed her work after being home for so many years). As for timeframe, their 6 kids were all born in the 70s.

This story could happen today

No- not with current healthcare and college costs.

My daughter graduated college few years ago, went on full merits scholarship, engineering degree from top school. Was able to purchase the house for herself on her own salary without our help (starting salary was 6 digits), interest rate under 3%. Totally doable on one salary today.

So no student loans, no dependents, good salary and low interest rate (less than half of what it is today). Not quite “doable” by “todays” standards.

She did not vote for today's standards, the low rates and plenty of jobs was during Trump's presidency. Today kids will have a choice to vote in November if they want jobs and house.

Rates are high, yes, but jobs are much better under Biden if you actually pay attention to numbers rather than conjecture

I am paying attention. A lot of kids who received a job offer after May 2022 graduation was deferred to start in January and now deferred to May start. A lot of layouts even in industry that we always considered safe, like IT and engineers. You should pay attention what is going on beyond the numbers that this administration feeding you.

Mmmm, anecdata!

Anecdata vs. Bidendata. But most of the people will be voting this year based on their own data.

"Do your own research!"