Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 23:47     Subject: Re:Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:What will help her is growing old enough to develop language skills so that she can more clearly communicate her needs and, hopefully, have most of them met.
Try spending the day getting by with the vocabulary of a child who’s barely two, with other people making decisions about pretty much everything you do. Let me know how it goes. This is part of being two. If she only does this with you — perhaps her most reliable caregiver? — it’s a good time to widen her world with play groups, baby sitters, pre-school — chances to enrich her experiences, provide a wider variety of adults and peers, while giving you a break. Win-win. As she gets closer to 3 and her language skills improve, things should quickly get better. Talk with your pediatrician and other parents who have experience with teaching toddlers sign language. My understanding is that it helps many kids — and families— quite a lot when the kids are at an age when what the feelings and thoughts that they want to express far exceed their ability to do so with spoken language.


She is fully verbal and has spoken in grammatically correct sentences since about 20 months. She has the vocabulary of a grade schooler. Not bragging because obviously we have other massive deficits and problems. Just saying that inability to communicate is not the issue. We know EXACTLY what she wants and is feeling.

Look up the lady who writes the blog about her extraordinarily gifted son (something about raising Poppies). He sounds identical to your daughter. She said he cried nonstop as a baby, the only way he would pause crying was when the vacuum cleaner ran (she kept him in a sling and carried him around, vacuuming) and when she read him books. Your daughter might be profoundly high IQ.


Profoundly gifted children will vary in their presentation, but this doesn't sound profoundly gifted. High IQ is possible, but in any case, please get the ASD evaluation and continue your search for professional help, OP. High IQ alone would not explain this.

OP, you sound like a very loving mom. Wishing you the best on this tough road.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 23:23     Subject: Re:Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A couple thoughts for you, from someone who has gone through toddler hell and come out the other side.

She will literally cry for hours until and unless you do exactly what she wants or I get so frustrated I distract/redirect her, which only works some of the time.


This makes me wonder how often you change your no to a yes. Or if you can sometimes be worn down to start offering bribes (“Want more snack? Would watching a show help you feel better? If you stop crying, you can go with Mommy to Starbucks and get a hot chocolate.”) Basically, I wonder if what started as legitimate high-needs behavior is getting reinforced and rewarded.

You also mention that she will follow you from room to room, weeping wailing. What happens when she does? Do you interact with her? (“Larla, you need to stop crying. Larla! Take deep breaths. Larla, let’s breathe together. Iiiiin and ouuuuuuut.”) Or do you cheerfully go about your business? (“Mommy is going into the family room to fold this laundry. Hmmm, I wonder where the other blue sock is.”)

My two cents would be to help her name her feelings (“You’re thinking about how good a sandwich would taste right now, and are frustrated that I can’t make one while I’m driving”), but don’t get sucked into the theatricality they generate. Acknowledge them, but don’t try to solve them. (“I like sandwiches too. Wouldn’t it be great if we could push a button in the car and have it make us a sandwich?”)

“How to Talk So Kids Will Listen” is an oldie but a goodie. Consistency is hard, but so important. Above all, don’t negotiate with terrorists. Give her tons of attention when she’s calm, but grey rock when the dramatics start.


I never offer bribes, and I never ever change no to yes. I do sometimes eventually redirect, which I thought I wasn’t supposed to do because you’re supposed to give them a chance to self-regulate.

While she’s crying and following me, I’m usually trying to ignore while occasionally acknowledging and affirming: “You’re so Upset I won’t sit on the floor and hold your bear for you.” Yes. That’s very hard.”


psychologist here- not sure where this idea is from that you're not supposed to redirect but i adamantly disagree. I would clearly prompt the child TO do some other behavior. "self-regulation" is not just sitting waiting for feels to pass, it's taking some action- so you can prompt for her to do breathing, but often it's just prompting for some other thing to do that may distract. my toddler is younger but if she's having a meltdown about something my most common strategy is to distract/redirect and by doing that she then regulates herself and then i can praise her for calming down.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 23:14     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's interesting that she only does it with you. That is good! What about offering her a reward for not crying. I'd usually say 2ish is a bit too young for a rewards chart, but, since she is so verbal it could be worth a try.


Is it ok from an emotional perspective to incentivize not crying? Everything I’ve read says that crying in and of itself is not a problem. So does rewards for not crying send an inappropriate message that crying is bad? Sorry for dumb questions. I’m really struggling.


child psychologist here who specializes in parent training-- I would never frame it as a reward for not crying but i would reward whatever the behavior you want her to do (nice job accepting no calmly, nice job transitioning to get out the door! awesome job staying patient when mommy was busy, etc). and giving rewards for that
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 23:11     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Was she always like this? A high-needs baby?


The highest needs baby I’ve ever heard of. Still does not sleep through the night and woke 20+ times until 20 months. Could not be put down as a baby. Saw ENT, GI specialist, neurologist, etc to explore medical causes and she’s medically normal. Extremely, extremely high needs.

I wish to be in touch with you, as I've had a similar child, but I don't want to be public. Can you give me an anonymous email to contact you with?

Repeating so it doesn't get lost


Nobody wants to contact you from DCUM you weirdo.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 22:56     Subject: Re:Discipline for excessive crying
Can you teach her some sign language so she can communicate with you?

I had a high needs child who grew up to be anxious.

Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 22:25     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:To all those saying autistic, that makes me really sad, but I’ve always thought it was a real possibility. So thanks for those comments. We’ll get her evaluated when she’s a little older.

Any suggestions on how to handle The crying in the meantime?


Why not get her evaluated now? We got my daughter evaluated and diagnosed through children’s National child development clinic at your daughter’s age. Our DD is considered high functioning—so it is possible to diagnose at that age. If she is on the spectrum you want access to early intervention as soon as possible including parent training (a diagnosis often helps insurance to cover it).

DP. She may need an evaluation now and again when she’s older. It’s hard to parse ASD, ADHD, and anxiety symptoms because there’s so much overlap. My dd was diagnosed with ADHD at 7, anxiety at 9, and a neuropsychological exam at age 10 confirmed these diagnoses and added ASD. My dd is very intelligent, highly verbal, has a good sense of humor, is good at understanding other’s emotions, is highly empathetic. When she was younger, we were assured by her developmental pediatrician that she did not have ASD. In fact, her doctor remained skeptical, even after the neuropsychologist diagnosed her. However, she’s almost 16 now, and the gap between her social skills and those of her peers has widened considerably over the last 6-7 years. Her psychologist says she is now a textbook case of what used to be diagnosed as Asperger’s. ASD presents differently in girls, so it can be harder to know what to look for.

I have no idea whether your dd meets the criteria for any diagnosis, let alone what the diagnosis could be, but it will be better for you to have some idea what you’re dealing with. If you’re even contemplating disciplining a 27 month old for excessive crying, you really owe it to her to try to find out why she cries so much. Also, as a last resort, when you can’t take her crying anymore, it’s okay to put her somewhere safe (her bedroom, toy room, in her high chair) and give yourself a timeout to calm down and decompress. Big hugs. I know this is incredibly trying.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 22:23     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
My extremely gifted son was an extremely difficult baby.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 22:20     Subject: Re:Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A couple thoughts for you, from someone who has gone through toddler hell and come out the other side.

She will literally cry for hours until and unless you do exactly what she wants or I get so frustrated I distract/redirect her, which only works some of the time.


This makes me wonder how often you change your no to a yes. Or if you can sometimes be worn down to start offering bribes (“Want more snack? Would watching a show help you feel better? If you stop crying, you can go with Mommy to Starbucks and get a hot chocolate.”) Basically, I wonder if what started as legitimate high-needs behavior is getting reinforced and rewarded.

You also mention that she will follow you from room to room, weeping wailing. What happens when she does? Do you interact with her? (“Larla, you need to stop crying. Larla! Take deep breaths. Larla, let’s breathe together. Iiiiin and ouuuuuuut.”) Or do you cheerfully go about your business? (“Mommy is going into the family room to fold this laundry. Hmmm, I wonder where the other blue sock is.”)

My two cents would be to help her name her feelings (“You’re thinking about how good a sandwich would taste right now, and are frustrated that I can’t make one while I’m driving”), but don’t get sucked into the theatricality they generate. Acknowledge them, but don’t try to solve them. (“I like sandwiches too. Wouldn’t it be great if we could push a button in the car and have it make us a sandwich?”)

“How to Talk So Kids Will Listen” is an oldie but a goodie. Consistency is hard, but so important. Above all, don’t negotiate with terrorists. Give her tons of attention when she’s calm, but grey rock when the dramatics start.


I never offer bribes, and I never ever change no to yes. I do sometimes eventually redirect, which I thought I wasn’t supposed to do because you’re supposed to give them a chance to self-regulate.

While she’s crying and following me, I’m usually trying to ignore while occasionally acknowledging and affirming: “You’re so Upset I won’t sit on the floor and hold your bear for you.” Yes. That’s very hard.”


I think it’s totally fine to sit on the floor and hold her bear unless you are busy with something else or too tired/upset. Don’t deny it out of principle.
-pp who first suggested ASD


And that is what I did for about the first 18 months of her life. Her demands have always been utterly relentless. Sit here, hold this, give me this, do this, say this. At first I thought I was nurturing a strong sense of self and her preferences so I thought it was fine. But as time has gone on I feel like it's not healthy to act like her slave all day. To be clear, she wants me to do something for her nearly every second of the day. It's not just hold the bear once. It's hold the bear, then sit on a specific spot on the floor, no chair allowed, then put this thing on a doll, then say a word this way not that way...it never ends. So I feel I have to refuse a lot of these requests because it's exhausting and also feels extreme and unhealthy. Where should I draw the line?
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 21:52     Subject: Re:Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:What will help her is growing old enough to develop language skills so that she can more clearly communicate her needs and, hopefully, have most of them met.
Try spending the day getting by with the vocabulary of a child who’s barely two, with other people making decisions about pretty much everything you do. Let me know how it goes. This is part of being two. If she only does this with you — perhaps her most reliable caregiver? — it’s a good time to widen her world with play groups, baby sitters, pre-school — chances to enrich her experiences, provide a wider variety of adults and peers, while giving you a break. Win-win. As she gets closer to 3 and her language skills improve, things should quickly get better. Talk with your pediatrician and other parents who have experience with teaching toddlers sign language. My understanding is that it helps many kids — and families— quite a lot when the kids are at an age when what the feelings and thoughts that they want to express far exceed their ability to do so with spoken language.


She is fully verbal and has spoken in grammatically correct sentences since about 20 months. She has the vocabulary of a grade schooler. Not bragging because obviously we have other massive deficits and problems. Just saying that inability to communicate is not the issue. We know EXACTLY what she wants and is feeling.

Look up the lady who writes the blog about her extraordinarily gifted son (something about raising Poppies). He sounds identical to your daughter. She said he cried nonstop as a baby, the only way he would pause crying was when the vacuum cleaner ran (she kept him in a sling and carried him around, vacuuming) and when she read him books. Your daughter might be profoundly high IQ.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 21:52     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
It is so sad how many peds dismiss or worse, blame the parents for something out of their control.
Also, how much advice for little kids is focused on denying them the soothing or worse, punishing them for something they can’t control.
Our kids are good people. They just don’t know how to ask, so they cry for help. The best thing we can do is listen to them and give them what they need. They are not spoiled. It is impossible to spoil a child with love, seeing them and respecting their needs.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 21:48     Subject: Re:Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A couple thoughts for you, from someone who has gone through toddler hell and come out the other side.

She will literally cry for hours until and unless you do exactly what she wants or I get so frustrated I distract/redirect her, which only works some of the time.


This makes me wonder how often you change your no to a yes. Or if you can sometimes be worn down to start offering bribes (“Want more snack? Would watching a show help you feel better? If you stop crying, you can go with Mommy to Starbucks and get a hot chocolate.”) Basically, I wonder if what started as legitimate high-needs behavior is getting reinforced and rewarded.

You also mention that she will follow you from room to room, weeping wailing. What happens when she does? Do you interact with her? (“Larla, you need to stop crying. Larla! Take deep breaths. Larla, let’s breathe together. Iiiiin and ouuuuuuut.”) Or do you cheerfully go about your business? (“Mommy is going into the family room to fold this laundry. Hmmm, I wonder where the other blue sock is.”)

My two cents would be to help her name her feelings (“You’re thinking about how good a sandwich would taste right now, and are frustrated that I can’t make one while I’m driving”), but don’t get sucked into the theatricality they generate. Acknowledge them, but don’t try to solve them. (“I like sandwiches too. Wouldn’t it be great if we could push a button in the car and have it make us a sandwich?”)

“How to Talk So Kids Will Listen” is an oldie but a goodie. Consistency is hard, but so important. Above all, don’t negotiate with terrorists. Give her tons of attention when she’s calm, but grey rock when the dramatics start.


I never offer bribes, and I never ever change no to yes. I do sometimes eventually redirect, which I thought I wasn’t supposed to do because you’re supposed to give them a chance to self-regulate.

While she’s crying and following me, I’m usually trying to ignore while occasionally acknowledging and affirming: “You’re so Upset I won’t sit on the floor and hold your bear for you.” Yes. That’s very hard.”


I think it’s totally fine to sit on the floor and hold her bear unless you are busy with something else or too tired/upset. Don’t deny it out of principle.
-pp who first suggested ASD
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 21:35     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I've written out so many answers, but it all boils down to: please see a psychoanalyst for yourself. You are facing a very challenging parenting situation, and your own parents, who were emotionally unavailable and cruel, did not give you the models you need to parent the special kid you have.


OP here. I did therapy for about a decade, including a perinatal mental health specialized psychologist during the first 6 months of my daughter’s life because it was so hard. I know what my issues and deficits are and why I have them and am honest about them (I hope you can see that on this thread). That said, I have not found therapy helpful at all in self regulating. You’ll probably say that’s my fault. Sure. I’m trying and I don’t know what else to do.


When you have a neurodivergent child, sometimes you’re doing everything you can to regulate yourself but what you need is professional parenting support to help with your childs struggles. My son has ASD and sounds similar to your daughter at her age. It took way too long to get the right kind of care for him because his vocabulary was so good, and because he did better with everyone but me.

All the pediatrician and therapists we spoke to told me that the problems we were having were because of my parenting - until he was 11 and a therapist finally suggested an ASD evaluation because his symptoms were consistent with high functioning ASD.

It’s hard. And he’s 15 now and we’re in an OK place.

Seek an eval as soon as you can.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 21:21     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:To all those saying autistic, that makes me really sad, but I’ve always thought it was a real possibility. So thanks for those comments. We’ll get her evaluated when she’s a little older.

Any suggestions on how to handle The crying in the meantime?


No, you need to get her evaluated now, because the developmental pediatrician will have resources and suggestions for you. Early intervention is key. Please keep in mind that there are long waiting times for an evaluation sometimes. Also keep in mind that you need answers ASAP because she will be eligible for special programs, as well as services and accommodations in school. Finally, it's never a one-and-done evaluation: there will be several in the course of her life, because she's very young, and each specialist will discover something more every few years.

She seems very bright, and if she is amenable to controlling her sensory overload and emotions, and easing her mental rigidity (all of which she can do with practice, ie, behavioral modification!), then I am sure she will be do great things later on!

In the meantime, look up resources for parenting ASD kids. Try to find something she can use to self-soothe. Right now, the crying is the self-soothing mechanism. You want to exchange it for something else. She sounds sensory-avoidant. My sensory-avoidant kid would jump on the trampoline for hours. He loved hearing me read books to him. Would she like the same thing? Audio books? Classical music? Try things that aren't necessarily kid-friendly - maybe she'll like them.

- wife and mother of twice exceptional ADHD/ASD humans.



Such a helpful response, thank you. OK. So many of you here have pushed me. I just googled our local pediatric developmental behavioral center and have the tab open to email Monday. I didn't actually realize you could diagnose or get evaluated so young. She has never been violent or aggressive or had any of the other obvious "problem" behaviors that are red flags and our pediatricians have always been so incredibly dismissive that it honestly never occurred to me there might be help for our particular challenges. Thank you.

And to the particular pp above, it hadn't occurred to me that the crying might be her form of self-soothing. Maybe because I can't tell what would be upsetting her so badly in so many of the situations in which she cries, so I wouldn't have thought she'd need soothing in those moments. You and another poster both talked about working with her during calm times to identify things that are soothing to her. The obvious ones like pacifiers and stuffed animals have never worked, so I'll work harder for non-conventional ones. Thank you.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 21:03     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
Anonymous wrote:To all those saying autistic, that makes me really sad, but I’ve always thought it was a real possibility. So thanks for those comments. We’ll get her evaluated when she’s a little older.

Any suggestions on how to handle The crying in the meantime?

There is absolutely no reason to wait. It can take you months to get scheduled with a developmental pediatrician so I’d get the ball rolling with that now.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2023 20:52     Subject: Discipline for excessive crying
OP here. I just want to thank everyone who’s taken the time to comment. Lots of thoughtful, very helpful responses here.

Also, you can see from the huge variety of responses on this thread why I am not sure what to do. Ignore her, more love, quiet time, full time care, there are just so many contradictory schools of thought on how to deal with this.