Anonymous
09/23/2023 19:54
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Somewhat surprisingly, my black daughter with a 4.0 and 35 ACT (one sitting) didn't get into Berkeley OOS for engineering, albeit the ACT score wasn't submitted.
Why would you not submit such a high ACT score?
You can’t submit to Berkeley (or any UC) because they are test blind and they also don’t consider race
Anonymous
09/23/2023 18:59
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Somewhat surprisingly, my black daughter with a 4.0 and 35 ACT (one sitting) didn't get into Berkeley OOS for engineering, albeit the ACT score wasn't submitted.
Why would you not submit such a high ACT score?
Anonymous
09/20/2023 20:20
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Lots of people who are delusional about the importance of essays and recommendations. They aren’t difference makers unless they are really bad.
Ultimately it is important your kid do a good job on the application so as to not wind up on the bad category, but the difference makers are mostly out of your child’s control at this point. They’re going to be compared to their class mates and kids from similar local schools. The school may want kids looking for a certain major or that have a certain talent (e.g. a harpist). But mostly it’s just a numbers game.
Hard disagree. If you are applying to T20 colleges - where every single applicant is going to have stellar academics - the essays and the letters of recommendation are hugely important. This is where you have a chance to get the reader on your side so they argue for you at the table. It's important. The essay is the one place on an application where the student can really show who they are. And personalized letters of recommendation from teachers who know the students help schools feel confident in extending an acceptance. It's foolish to ignore essays and letters of recommendation. They are very often the difference makers at highly selective schools that accept fewer than 10 percent of all applicants.
I have two kids at T20 universities presently. Both spent a lot of time on their essays. Very unique. Very funny. Very well written. I'm convinced the essays and really good letters of rec - plus exceptionally good ECs - are what distinguished them from all the other unhooked applicants with outstanding GPAs and test scores.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 20:00
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:HS Teacher
My top students with multiple waitlists/rejections were all asian males. They ended up at (good) state schools but by and large were rejected by privates.
raise hand.. that was my CS Asian male. Very high stats. Now at a state flagship with merit.
They would have probably gotten amazing merit at second tier privates.
My Asian kid did, because they seek diversity.
? the flagship is very diverse.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 18:39
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Lots of people who are delusional about the importance of essays and recommendations. They aren’t difference makers unless they are really bad.
Ultimately it is important your kid do a good job on the application so as to not wind up on the bad category, but the difference makers are mostly out of your child’s control at this point. They’re going to be compared to their class mates and kids from similar local schools. The school may want kids looking for a certain major or that have a certain talent (e.g. a harpist). But mostly it’s just a numbers game.
Ultimately it is important your kid do a good job on the application so as to not wind up on the bad category, but the difference makers are mostly out of your child’s control at this point. They’re going to be compared to their class mates and kids from similar local schools. The school may want kids looking for a certain major or that have a certain talent (e.g. a harpist). But mostly it’s just a numbers game.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 16:06
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Most college admissions things I’ve attended have deemphasized essays, including liberal arts colleges. They say that almost all of the essays are good and that students shouldn’t stress so much about them. I’m sure there are a few that are outstanding and a few that are terrible.
I can def see recommendations helping or hurting. And that is somewhat hard to control.
I've been to a bunch of college information sessions for highly competitive schools and have never heard the presenters downplay the importance of the essays. In fact, it's universally been quite the opposite. Perhaps it depends on the institution, but I think essays are generally given a lot of weight.
I have heard it said that they can help kids who are NOT clear yes' or no's. There is a huge stack of kids who are good enough to get in but not superstars (when compared to other applicants who were clear acceptances). If the applicant makes the reader feel like they know him or her personally (because they used an authentic voice), it is more likely that they will fight for them around the decision table.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 16:02
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:HS Teacher
My top students with multiple waitlists/rejections were all asian males. They ended up at (good) state schools but by and large were rejected by privates.
raise hand.. that was my CS Asian male. Very high stats. Now at a state flagship with merit.
They would have probably gotten amazing merit at second tier privates.
My Asian kid did, because they seek diversity.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 15:51
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Most college admissions things I’ve attended have deemphasized essays, including liberal arts colleges. They say that almost all of the essays are good and that students shouldn’t stress so much about them. I’m sure there are a few that are outstanding and a few that are terrible.
I can def see recommendations helping or hurting. And that is somewhat hard to control.
I've been to a bunch of college information sessions for highly competitive schools and have never heard the presenters downplay the importance of the essays. In fact, it's universally been quite the opposite. Perhaps it depends on the institution, but I think essays are generally given a lot of weight.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 15:48
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Essays and EC descriptions are a good chance to show interest and a good "match" with a school. You don't have to send the same EC list and essay to every school, and it can help you to send a slightly more customized application.Anonymous wrote:Most college admissions things I’ve attended have deemphasized essays, including liberal arts colleges. They say that almost all of the essays are good and that students shouldn’t stress so much about them. I’m sure there are a few that are outstanding and a few that are terrible.
I can def see recommendations helping or hurting. And that is somewhat hard to control.
References can be vetted by college counselors. Kids can ask for several and ask the counselor which ones to use. Kids should be sensitive to nuance in these conversations and be ready to ask for reference from someone else if a teacher says something like "Do you have other teachers who might know you better?" etc.
Good point about reading between the lines in how the teacher responds to you. But as for the letters themselves, they can only be vetted if the writers think the letter is going to a legitimate recipient rather than the counselor. The point is to make sure you know what the writers say when they think you're not looking.
A good way to do this is to find a summer enrichment program where say your parents are good friends with the program's director. Ask your potential college recommenders to write a letter for this program. Then the director can share the letters with your parents and your college counselor, and you can evaluate how helpful each letter is.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 14:12
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Essays and EC descriptions are a good chance to show interest and a good "match" with a school. You don't have to send the same EC list and essay to every school, and it can help you to send a slightly more customized application.Anonymous wrote:Most college admissions things I’ve attended have deemphasized essays, including liberal arts colleges. They say that almost all of the essays are good and that students shouldn’t stress so much about them. I’m sure there are a few that are outstanding and a few that are terrible.
I can def see recommendations helping or hurting. And that is somewhat hard to control.
References can be vetted by college counselors. Kids can ask for several and ask the counselor which ones to use. Kids should be sensitive to nuance in these conversations and be ready to ask for reference from someone else if a teacher says something like "Do you have other teachers who might know you better?" etc.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 13:51
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Most college admissions things I’ve attended have deemphasized essays, including liberal arts colleges. They say that almost all of the essays are good and that students shouldn’t stress so much about them. I’m sure there are a few that are outstanding and a few that are terrible.
I can def see recommendations helping or hurting. And that is somewhat hard to control.
I can def see recommendations helping or hurting. And that is somewhat hard to control.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 13:32
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
⬆️⬆️⬆️ This!
Anonymous
09/20/2023 11:45
Subject: Re:Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Unvarnished and perhaps unwelcome truth from someone who's been in University administration and knows EXACTLY how things work:
The essays and the letters of recommendation. That's what distinguishes your kid.
Yes, just like with job applications you need to personalize the essays to each specific college. Personalization makes the school think you're actually interested in them, and that there's a good chance you'd go if you're accepted. So yield probability is higher than with students just spraying applications out there. Dumb to blow this off, and worth grounding your kid if they try to be lazy. Alternative is to employ your kid from the start of summer to write the essays and then personalize each one so they're done by the end of summer.
A corollary to the personalization--be sure to distinguish why you personally would be thrilled to bring your gifts to that college or university. In fact this is probably more important, regardless of whatever pablum the college/university spews about being "need-blind". Admissions officers know how to count and add. Make sure those gifts correlate positively with the ability to pay full tuition. Best if those gifts also indicate a higher likelihood that you and your family will donate beyond tuition paid over your lifetimes.
BTW that's where the aforementioned HS Service Award winner who got rejected all over the place went wrong. A kid who gets a Service Award sees the world beyond her family's front door, and is less likely to value donations to the alma mater above whatever "food for the poor" or "save Third World babies" nonprofit catches her fancy. The kid needs to become a superstar in saving the world to generate enough positive PR for the university to outweigh the frat kid whose family routinely donates a few K to the alma mater each year as an alum.
Finally, the letters of recommendation. Note that none of you people know what your recommender actually submits to the college. Sure, they may "show" you the "Letter". But are you sitting with them as they pull up the "Letter", show it to you with the filepath and filename, post it to the University website and sign off that indeed you parent and student have followed your promise to waive your right to see the letter? Or for the Luddites out there, are you sitting with the recommender as they take the printed letter directly from your hands, place it into the envelope, seal it in front of you (of course you already stamped it), sign it in front of you, and walk with you to the mailbox to drop it off?
No, you're not. You're placing your faith in the recommender to write a superlative letter for your kid. You're trusting further that the recommender has credibility and an excellent track record with institutions of higher education (who talk with each other and have employees previously working in admissions at other schools). You're praying further that your recommender does not just sing hosannas to your child, but that the recommender explicitly ranks your child above current peer applicants from the school as well as past applicants for whom they submitted a letter of recommendation.
Uncomfortable truth: not all letters of recommendation have these qualities. You're supposed to be choosing the person who will write you the best recommendation. So it's supposed to be a showstopper. Some letters then are positive but not positive enough, letting down the Admissions Officer and making them wonder about your judgment. Some are poorly written and indicate that your high school (and thus your student) is a joke. Some praise the wrong things such that the University wonders what exactly is going on between the recommender and the student (i.e. the Civics teacher/Head Football Coach writes that the student "returns from cheerleader workouts at lunch ready to go, strutting into his room looking like a million bucks exuding grace confidence and loveliness as she gets ready to discuss civics in America").
Schools want kids who will accept their offers, and who will be a net positive. That's the needle you need to thread.
The essays and the letters of recommendation. That's what distinguishes your kid.
Yes, just like with job applications you need to personalize the essays to each specific college. Personalization makes the school think you're actually interested in them, and that there's a good chance you'd go if you're accepted. So yield probability is higher than with students just spraying applications out there. Dumb to blow this off, and worth grounding your kid if they try to be lazy. Alternative is to employ your kid from the start of summer to write the essays and then personalize each one so they're done by the end of summer.
A corollary to the personalization--be sure to distinguish why you personally would be thrilled to bring your gifts to that college or university. In fact this is probably more important, regardless of whatever pablum the college/university spews about being "need-blind". Admissions officers know how to count and add. Make sure those gifts correlate positively with the ability to pay full tuition. Best if those gifts also indicate a higher likelihood that you and your family will donate beyond tuition paid over your lifetimes.
BTW that's where the aforementioned HS Service Award winner who got rejected all over the place went wrong. A kid who gets a Service Award sees the world beyond her family's front door, and is less likely to value donations to the alma mater above whatever "food for the poor" or "save Third World babies" nonprofit catches her fancy. The kid needs to become a superstar in saving the world to generate enough positive PR for the university to outweigh the frat kid whose family routinely donates a few K to the alma mater each year as an alum.
Finally, the letters of recommendation. Note that none of you people know what your recommender actually submits to the college. Sure, they may "show" you the "Letter". But are you sitting with them as they pull up the "Letter", show it to you with the filepath and filename, post it to the University website and sign off that indeed you parent and student have followed your promise to waive your right to see the letter? Or for the Luddites out there, are you sitting with the recommender as they take the printed letter directly from your hands, place it into the envelope, seal it in front of you (of course you already stamped it), sign it in front of you, and walk with you to the mailbox to drop it off?
No, you're not. You're placing your faith in the recommender to write a superlative letter for your kid. You're trusting further that the recommender has credibility and an excellent track record with institutions of higher education (who talk with each other and have employees previously working in admissions at other schools). You're praying further that your recommender does not just sing hosannas to your child, but that the recommender explicitly ranks your child above current peer applicants from the school as well as past applicants for whom they submitted a letter of recommendation.
Uncomfortable truth: not all letters of recommendation have these qualities. You're supposed to be choosing the person who will write you the best recommendation. So it's supposed to be a showstopper. Some letters then are positive but not positive enough, letting down the Admissions Officer and making them wonder about your judgment. Some are poorly written and indicate that your high school (and thus your student) is a joke. Some praise the wrong things such that the University wonders what exactly is going on between the recommender and the student (i.e. the Civics teacher/Head Football Coach writes that the student "returns from cheerleader workouts at lunch ready to go, strutting into his room looking like a million bucks exuding grace confidence and loveliness as she gets ready to discuss civics in America").
Schools want kids who will accept their offers, and who will be a net positive. That's the needle you need to thread.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 10:22
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm sure numerous posters will comment that my kid wasn't top stats, typical DMV, etc but anyway...
White male from NOVA public. CS (big surprise!)
3.98/4.5, 9 APs, 3 Dual E;
1560, NMSF;
Varsity athlete, leadership in two CS related clubs (started one);
Self taught musician;
Intern (CS related) at small non profit;
PT job
Rejected H and Penn
WL UVA and NEU
Where was he accepted? That would help some of us...
With merit: BU, Lehigh, CWRU, UMD, Ohio St., UMN
No merit: WM, Pitt
The UVA wL is annoying because it’s an in state option but otherwise I don’t see this as a disappointing outcome at all. Those are great schools. The Ivies are long shots for anyone and NEU has become bizarrely popular.
Nothing bizarre about it if you actually know the facts and have been there.
Great location, Urban but still good campus, great outcome, quality peers, etc.
Depending on fields of study, but outside of T20/25, not many better alternative choices.
I didn’t mean to suggest it’s not a good school. It certainly is, it’s just shot up in popularity maybe a bit unusually making it a very hard admit. I will say I don’t love what I’ve heard they do with asking kids to go to other campuses for part of their time with the school. But that’s not really relevant to me comment which was just that the PP didn’t get in everywhere, true, but they were admitted to some very solid schools.
Anonymous
09/20/2023 10:01
Subject: Top Stats students that had difficult admissions last year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm sure numerous posters will comment that my kid wasn't top stats, typical DMV, etc but anyway...
White male from NOVA public. CS (big surprise!)
3.98/4.5, 9 APs, 3 Dual E;
1560, NMSF;
Varsity athlete, leadership in two CS related clubs (started one);
Self taught musician;
Intern (CS related) at small non profit;
PT job
Rejected H and Penn
WL UVA and NEU
Where was he accepted? That would help some of us...
With merit: BU, Lehigh, CWRU, UMD, Ohio St., UMN
No merit: WM, Pitt
The UVA wL is annoying because it’s an in state option but otherwise I don’t see this as a disappointing outcome at all. Those are great schools. The Ivies are long shots for anyone and NEU has become bizarrely popular.
Nothing bizarre about it if you actually know the facts and have been there.
Great location, Urban but still good campus, great outcome, quality peers, etc.
Depending on fields of study, but outside of T20/25, not many better alternative choices.
+1
Have to agree. IYKYK.