Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:14
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.
Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.
Right. Because ATS is a choice school.
Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.
More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.
If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?
Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.
Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?
Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?
You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?
We were one of those families. We thought something was wrong. But we were told to wait and see, then everyone was behind because of the pandemic, then she was making progress. We asked but couldn’t get summer school. Finally got a private diagnosis and tutor. That’s HOW WE DIDN’T KNOW . We trusted APS to do its job and they didn’t.
THIS!
This is another distinguishing factor of ATS. They don't "wait and see." They note issues right away. And "making progress" to them isn't sufficient. Making the right amount of progress is what matters. "Making progress" does not mean there isn't an issue.
REALITY CHECK!
YOU are your child’s first teacher. YOU are their best advocate. If YOU knew (because you clearly state you did) your child was struggling, it was up to YOU to trust your gut and find another solution.
Remote learning failed tons of kids. And so did Lucy Calkins. Many parents sought outside tutoring, and a lot who couldn’t afford it researched homeschooling curricula and did remediation themselves.
If you are blown off by your child’s doctor, do you just follow their advice and “wait and see” when your kid is clearly dying? OF COURSE NOT.
I get the frustration with APS, I really do. But at some point you have to realize you’re the one in charge.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:13
Subject: Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
If your kid is enrolled in any Arlington County elementary school and you are on this thread, your kid is going to be just fine. End of story.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:09
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.
Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.
Right. Because ATS is a choice school.
Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.
More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.
If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?
Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.
Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?
Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?
You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?
More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.
No one’s saying poor parents can’t be involved. ATS has low SES families that thrive.
(And FWIW, not everyone at TJHSST is wealthy either.)
But nobody bothers to point it out or acknowledge it much. It's far too common to refer to the lower achieving students' parents because they aren't able to provide the support and engagement. I'm just reminding people that a lot of lower income parents are highly involved in their kids' education. Yet, there are still those gaps, yes?
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:08
Subject: Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Sorry. The only possible answer for ATS’s success is that really smart parents chose ATS. Closing the achievement gap forever remains a unicorn because poor kids don’t have involved parents. Let’s just stop trying and give everyone a trophy so they don’t feel bad about themselves and call it day.
OK. So let's make ATS employ the same rules and policies and curriculum and instructional methods as any other neighborhood school, especially like our "worst performing" ones. There should be absolutely no difference in outcomes at ATS, then, right? Cause the smart parents picking it is the only possible answer for its success.
Someone earlier said raise standards and expectations and let the chips fall where they may.
They used to do that, and it didn’t look so good when you compared different demographics.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:07
Subject: Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.
I just wrote the long post and basically said the same thing at the end.
This is it folks. If you are uptight enough to be dithering about this stuff, your kid will be fine.
As someone with older kids who were friends with ATS kids, I can say that this level of parental stress is not helping the kids in the long term. I'm not blaming ATS for its parents or saying that every kid's problem can be traced to their parents, but maybe parents who are obsessed with ATS and other highly structured schools could take a minute and reflect (if you're in ATS and your kid is happy, please move on because I'm not here to destroy anyone's joy):
What do you define as "success"? Sixth-grade test scores?
What's your definition of "high academic and behavioral standards"? What other achievements matter to you?
Do you have evidence that any of this will matter by the time your kid graduates from high school? What are you teaching your kid about your family's values and expectations? How much do you know about child development and education?
What was your own experience with school? How do you think it influenced who you are today? What do you know about the school experience of people you admire? Do you attribute all that to their elementary school?
Elementary school is important. Not learning to read well has catastrophic effects later in life. If a kid isn’t reading well by 4th grade, it’s hard to keep up with their peers.
I don’t blame parents for being angry. I think the whole community should be angry. Tons of tax dollars and a lot of kids with terrible reading skills.
Agree.
We shouldn't be waiting until 4th grade to determine kids can't read and it's a problem.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:05
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.
Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.
Right. Because ATS is a choice school.
Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.
More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.
If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?
Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.
Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?
Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?
You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?
More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.
No one’s saying poor parents can’t be involved. ATS has low SES families that thrive.
(And FWIW, not everyone at TJHSST is wealthy either.)
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:03
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.
Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.
Right. Because ATS is a choice school.
Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.
More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.
If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?
Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.
Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?
Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?
You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?
We were one of those families. We thought something was wrong. But we were told to wait and see, then everyone was behind because of the pandemic, then she was making progress. We asked but couldn’t get summer school. Finally got a private diagnosis and tutor. That’s HOW WE DIDN’T KNOW . We trusted APS to do its job and they didn’t.
THIS!
This is another distinguishing factor of ATS. They don't "wait and see." They note issues right away. And "making progress" to them isn't sufficient. Making the right amount of progress is what matters. "Making progress" does not mean there isn't an issue.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:02
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.
Sure but that can’t be only factor?
It’s the largest contributing factor. Like 90% of the pie.
OK. Clearly the ATS parents want the credit for their kids' and their school's success. So, yes, absolutely, it is entirely due to the parents who put in for the lottery and accept the slots. Entirely. Not 90%. Because without these specific fabulous parents being involved, the administration might implement instructional changes that they make the other neighborhood schools do. So, KUDOS to you parents!!!
Are you reading the same thread? ATS parents are saying other schools could do more of what ATS is doing. Parental involvement matters but parents are choosing ATS because what they are doing works. ATS deserves the credit and I don't blame parents for lining up to go to ATS. PP is right that parents put in what the school expects of them. It harder than ever in APS to know how your kid is doing. Schoolwork rarely sent home, homework packets depend on the school, grading is usually a cut and paste affair and you're not sure if the comments about "johnny" apply to your "Jenny". At least APS is finally figuring out how to teach kids to read but ATS was doing that for decades.
They claim ATS' success is 90% due to the self-selection by parents. That makes the parents responsible for the success.
I fully agree that APS should be making all of our ES more like ATS. But I'm tired of people crediting the bulk of its success on parents' selection. ATS works well for most students. Period. Not because their parents chose the program.
Does ATS have kids with a lot of unexcused absences?
Does ATS have parents who don’t EVER show up to parent-teacher conferences?
When a child is combative at ATS, what happens when that child’s parents shrug their shoulders?
Anonymous
09/15/2023 11:01
Subject: Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Sorry. The only possible answer for ATS’s success is that really smart parents chose ATS. Closing the achievement gap forever remains a unicorn because poor kids don’t have involved parents. Let’s just stop trying and give everyone a trophy so they don’t feel bad about themselves and call it day.
OK. So let's make ATS employ the same rules and policies and curriculum and instructional methods as any other neighborhood school, especially like our "worst performing" ones. There should be absolutely no difference in outcomes at ATS, then, right? Cause the smart parents picking it is the only possible answer for its success.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 10:58
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.
Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.
Right. Because ATS is a choice school.
Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.
More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.
If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?
Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.
Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?
Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?
You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?
More notably, ;just because you're poor doesn't mean you're NOT involved. Enough with this stuff. Schools can't control what the parents are going to do or are able to do. Let's focus on what schools can do regardless of the parents - because kids can succeed, period.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 10:57
Subject: Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.
I just wrote the long post and basically said the same thing at the end.
This is it folks. If you are uptight enough to be dithering about this stuff, your kid will be fine.
As someone with older kids who were friends with ATS kids, I can say that this level of parental stress is not helping the kids in the long term. I'm not blaming ATS for its parents or saying that every kid's problem can be traced to their parents, but maybe parents who are obsessed with ATS and other highly structured schools could take a minute and reflect (if you're in ATS and your kid is happy, please move on because I'm not here to destroy anyone's joy):
What do you define as "success"? Sixth-grade test scores?
What's your definition of "high academic and behavioral standards"? What other achievements matter to you?
Do you have evidence that any of this will matter by the time your kid graduates from high school? What are you teaching your kid about your family's values and expectations? How much do you know about child development and education?
What was your own experience with school? How do you think it influenced who you are today? What do you know about the school experience of people you admire? Do you attribute all that to their elementary school?
Elementary school is important. Not learning to read well has catastrophic effects later in life. If a kid isn’t reading well by 4th grade, it’s hard to keep up with their peers.
I don’t blame parents for being angry. I think the whole community should be angry. Tons of tax dollars and a lot of kids with terrible reading skills.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 10:54
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:One big difference is parents who are involved and motivated enough to seek a slot at ATS. Your principal can’t do anything about that one.
Sure but that can’t be only factor?
It’s the largest contributing factor. Like 90% of the pie.
OK. Clearly the ATS parents want the credit for their kids' and their school's success. So, yes, absolutely, it is entirely due to the parents who put in for the lottery and accept the slots. Entirely. Not 90%. Because without these specific fabulous parents being involved, the administration might implement instructional changes that they make the other neighborhood schools do. So, KUDOS to you parents!!!
Are you reading the same thread? ATS parents are saying other schools could do more of what ATS is doing. Parental involvement matters but parents are choosing ATS because what they are doing works. ATS deserves the credit and I don't blame parents for lining up to go to ATS. PP is right that parents put in what the school expects of them. It harder than ever in APS to know how your kid is doing. Schoolwork rarely sent home, homework packets depend on the school, grading is usually a cut and paste affair and you're not sure if the comments about "johnny" apply to your "Jenny". At least APS is finally figuring out how to teach kids to read but ATS was doing that for decades.
They claim ATS' success is 90% due to the self-selection by parents. That makes the parents responsible for the success.
I fully agree that APS should be making all of our ES more like ATS. But I'm tired of people crediting the bulk of its success on parents' selection. ATS works well for most students. Period. Not because their parents chose the program.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 10:51
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our neighbors left ATS because they said it was not a good school for their kid who had special needs.
Neighborhood schools ( not all, but many) do a better job with that.
Right. Because ATS is a choice school.
Because it's a self selecting group, that's about 75% of the success right there.
More than 75% I think. Probably 90%. There are some things that can be replicated, but you aren’t going to be able to fix the main ingredient for ATS’s success in narrowing the achievement gap.
If self-selection is the achievement gap fixer, why don't the other choice programs have the same effect?
Yes, and not just other choice programs. The highly educated wealthy parents self selected, too, by buying into the elementary schools in northernmost Arlington.
Yet, I believe all those schools do have an achievement gap for their very few kids who do not fall into the well resourced parent category. There are also gaps for SN kids when I last checked, and ethnic ones as well.
They should have zero problems closing their gaps for those few students, why don't they or can't they?
Just because you’re wealthy doesn’t mean you’re involved. The number of parents in NA schools who didn’t know their child was struggling with reading or math till the later grades is shocking. Like HOW DIDN’T YOU KNOW?
You don’t need a teacher’s written report to know if your child is struggling. Do you not read with your child at home? Or talk about math concepts?
We were one of those families. We thought something was wrong. But we were told to wait and see, then everyone was behind because of the pandemic, then she was making progress. We asked but couldn’t get summer school. Finally got a private diagnosis and tutor. That’s HOW WE DIDN’T KNOW . We trusted APS to do its job and they didn’t.
I mean, you said it right there. You knew, but were given bad advice. I’m not talking about you. I’m talking to the parents whose kids are failing 4th grade. “I had no ideeeeea my kid can’t read!”
It’s less likely this happens at a school like ATS. Kids are flagged early if they are struggling and Held back if necessary. No “wait and see” BS or misleading report cards. Parents trust schools to tell them if there is a problem.
And parents trust pediatricians for medical advice. But any decent parent knows to trust their gut and get a second opinion when their concerns are brushed off and they know something’s wrong.
Maybe this is a wake up call. No, you can’t solely rely on someone else to teach your kids.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 10:50
Subject: Re:Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Most of these differences only work with home support.
Summer reading...home support.
The instrument...home support.
The dress code...home support.
The homework...home support. Let's be real any homework before about 3rd or 4th grade is a group project with you and your kid.
People discounting what a difference it makes to have a student body filled 100 percent with parents who were motivated and interested enough to get the kids there are just naive.
Sure. A lot but not all of our elementary schools have some of these things. Summer reading, homework, band take some level of parent buy in. I also think more but not all parents would ask their kids do these things if it was expected of them.
And why not weekly progress reports sent home to parents? That doesn’t require parent participation but more parents would know how their kid was doing. It opens the door to regular communication.
Teachers are not going to have time for this because they deal with a higher load of discipline and SN kids than ATS (since SN kids who struggle leave ATS for a school without homework)
There are a TON of SN kids at ATS, it was in this thread, too, around 12%. Do you think ATS has less issues than other lottery schools? Less behavioral struggles than neighborhood schools like, say, Jamestown, Tuckahoe, or Nottingham? I don't think so. Probably has more. There are a lot of ELL students who are new to the US or the parents are brand new to the US, there is a large SN population, and there is a very large poor population. Jamestown, Tuckahoe, Nottingham, etc. so not deal with these challenges, especially not in large numbers.
Now compare ATS to Carlin Springs, Barcroft, Randolph, Drew.
Anonymous
09/15/2023 10:49
Subject: Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I really need to stop reading the APS threads. They literally raise my blood pressure. You all are completely out of controlled. Obsessed really is the operative word. You will find out soon enough that you are all wasting your energy on meaningless differences between the elementary schools in Arlington - including ATS - in the long run. No matter which school your kids attend, they’re gonna be just fine - because they have to totally stressed out weirdos as parents.
I just wrote the long post and basically said the same thing at the end.
This is it folks. If you are uptight enough to be dithering about this stuff, your kid will be fine.
As someone with older kids who were friends with ATS kids, I can say that this level of parental stress is not helping the kids in the long term. I'm not blaming ATS for its parents or saying that every kid's problem can be traced to their parents, but maybe parents who are obsessed with ATS and other highly structured schools could take a minute and reflect (if you're in ATS and your kid is happy, please move on because I'm not here to destroy anyone's joy):
What do you define as "success"? Sixth-grade test scores?
What's your definition of "high academic and behavioral standards"? What other achievements matter to you?
Do you have evidence that any of this will matter by the time your kid graduates from high school? What are you teaching your kid about your family's values and expectations? How much do you know about child development and education?
What was your own experience with school? How do you think it influenced who you are today? What do you know about the school experience of people you admire? Do you attribute all that to their elementary school?