Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can get on board with retakes, but with two caveats:

1) You can't do infinite retakes. You get one chance

2) Your grade on the retake is capped at a B. You shouldn't be able to flunk a test and then walk away with an A. That completely devalues those who made the effort to work hard and prep for the test the first time.

The end goal is that they walk away from the class knowing math, not putting a premium on acing the test the first time.

There are multiple goals with education. One goal is knowing, another end goal is learning effective work-study habits, time management and organizational skills.

Generous retake policies might help with the former, but they definitely harm the latter.

Anonymous wrote:I can get on board with retakes, but with two caveats:

1) You can't do infinite retakes. You get one chance

2) Your grade on the retake is capped at a B. You shouldn't be able to flunk a test and then walk away with an A. That completely devalues those who made the effort to work hard and prep for the test the first time.

The end goal is that they walk away from the class knowing math, not putting a premium on acing the test the first time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Re-takes are a major problem.

In what way, and what makes you think so?

-NP

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

A 90% is still an A. And MCPS doesn't do plus or minuses, so the 90% grade looks the same as the kid who got 98%.

My kids' FCPS school allows one retake with the maximum being a 90%. FCPS uses a 100 point scale, but translates a 90 into an A-. That all assumes the kid will get a 100% on the retake. If they miss a single question, then it's a B+.

On that particular test, not for the grade in the class overall. Tests are only a tiny fraction of the grade in my kid's public school's math classes. They're also graded on projects, homework COMPLETION (not correct answers), and a bunch of other stuff that drives up the grade but requires much less of a conceptual understanding and ability to complete the work by yourself, and without use of the internet/other resources.

That's not my experience. For my kids' FCPS school, major exams are 65% of the grade, tests are 30% and homework and class participation are 10%

Yes, schools are different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

A 90% is still an A. And MCPS doesn't do plus or minuses, so the 90% grade looks the same as the kid who got 98%.

My kids' FCPS school allows one retake with the maximum being a 90%. FCPS uses a 100 point scale, but translates a 90 into an A-. That all assumes the kid will get a 100% on the retake. If they miss a single question, then it's a B+.

On that particular test, not for the grade in the class overall. Tests are only a tiny fraction of the grade in my kid's public school's math classes. They're also graded on projects, homework COMPLETION (not correct answers), and a bunch of other stuff that drives up the grade but requires much less of a conceptual understanding and ability to complete the work by yourself, and without use of the internet/other resources.

That's not my experience. For my kids' FCPS school, major exams are 65% of the grade, tests are 30% and homework and class participation are 10%

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

Re-takes are a major problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

A 90% is still an A. And MCPS doesn't do plus or minuses, so the 90% grade looks the same as the kid who got 98%.

My kids' FCPS school allows one retake with the maximum being a 90%. FCPS uses a 100 point scale, but translates a 90 into an A-. That all assumes the kid will get a 100% on the retake. If they miss a single question, then it's a B+.

On that particular test, not for the grade in the class overall. Tests are only a tiny fraction of the grade in my kid's public school's math classes. They're also graded on projects, homework COMPLETION (not correct answers), and a bunch of other stuff that drives up the grade but requires much less of a conceptual understanding and ability to complete the work by yourself, and without use of the internet/other resources.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m the poster who posted about my son’s As in public MS math classes. My problem with retakes is that he was offered them a lot and the retake grade replaced the original grade. So his semi-understanding of math was masked by the A grade. He earned As but instead of an A representing mastery of the subject, it really represented him being trained to use the first assessment as a trial to determine what to focus on for the retake. He didn’t demonstrate mastery across the board in every skill but his overall A masked that. Parents shouldn’t have to pay tuition to a private school to be told the truth of their child’s abilities. I wish I had switched him much sooner because MS was educational fraud IMO.

This isn't typical of many public school's practices.

I"m not sure where I stand on retakes, but a lot of reformers want this to be typical practice for school at all levels. Of course, they want it done better. For instance, students shouldn't re-take the same test they took before, and an A should represent true mastery. I guess I'm okay with that in theory but in practice that takes a massive amount of work for teachers who are already expected to do too much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is starting college in pre-calc that he took in 12th grade. He’s always been a terrible math student but his grades reflected that (mostly low Cs). But at least his private school was completely honest with us. His public MS gave him straight As in math including algebra 1 in 8th grade. When he took the algebra 1 placement test at his private HS, he failed miserably. There’s a lot of grade fraud going on in public education.

I don’t doubt you but how can you fake or inflate an algebra grade? I get it for other subjects. But isn’t Algebra a standard course? If you can’t solve X problems, you don’t get an A. I’m not being funny. I’m not American so maybe I’m confused.

How? When students can retake assessments, they can get higher grades. Many students use the first assessment as a feeler for the retake. Add in that students are trained to not expect just one assessment and watch out when they get to college when that’s all they get.

No good student is doing that. Retake grades top out at a 90%/A-, and that's for a 100%. The good students get As the first time around

A 90% is still an A. And MCPS doesn't do plus or minuses, so the 90% grade looks the same as the kid who got 98%.

My kids' FCPS school allows one retake with the maximum being a 90%. FCPS uses a 100 point scale, but translates a 90 into an A-. That all assumes the kid will get a 100% on the retake. If they miss a single question, then it's a B+.

Anonymous wrote:I’m the poster who posted about my son’s As in public MS math classes. My problem with retakes is that he was offered them a lot and the retake grade replaced the original grade. So his semi-understanding of math was masked by the A grade. He earned As but instead of an A representing mastery of the subject, it really represented him being trained to use the first assessment as a trial to determine what to focus on for the retake. He didn’t demonstrate mastery across the board in every skill but his overall A masked that. Parents shouldn’t have to pay tuition to a private school to be told the truth of their child’s abilities. I wish I had switched him much sooner because MS was educational fraud IMO.

This isn't typical of many public school's practices.

The problem is that math is hard and everyone goes to college. And of course you forget quite a bit quickly, just as with any field. If math comes easy to you, you get back into it, if not, the struggle starts again.

It's not about this generation. It may be in the sense that more math is required today than in the past as have been pointed out. I don't know, but if so, that's a different issue.

As long as I can remember we've been told HS teachers are horrified about the middle schoolers coming in these days, and the universities are horrified about the last batch of freshmen.

I’m the poster who posted about my son’s As in public MS math classes. My problem with retakes is that he was offered them a lot and the retake grade replaced the original grade. So his semi-understanding of math was masked by the A grade. He earned As but instead of an A representing mastery of the subject, it really represented him being trained to use the first assessment as a trial to determine what to focus on for the retake. He didn’t demonstrate mastery across the board in every skill but his overall A masked that. Parents shouldn’t have to pay tuition to a private school to be told the truth of their child’s abilities. I wish I had switched him much sooner because MS was educational fraud IMO.

I can get on board with retakes, but with two caveats:

1) You can't do infinite retakes. You get one chance

2) Your grade on the retake is capped at a B. You shouldn't be able to flunk a test and then walk away with an A. That completely devalues those who made the effort to work hard and prep for the test the first time.

Anonymous wrote:There should be no retakes. If you don't study or bomb a test, a bad grade should be your consequence.

That's how it was in 2000 when I graduated from a HS in this area and that's how it should be now. A 4.0 or higher used to be impressive back then. Seeing the way things are in schools now with my kids, GPAs are pretty much a joke at most high schools. Retakes for tests, late work accepted without penalties, full credit given for attempts instead of credit for right answers, etc.

A lot of research has been done in the past 23 years that suggests that allowing retakes makes for better student outcomes in terms of learning, motivation, and final exam scores. I am agnostic on whether or not teachers should allow retakes but I don't think allowing retakes is the problem. I think the big problems are 1) teachers are expected to deal with all behavioral issues *in* the classroom so they are spending all their time on that instead of teaching and 2) students who fail a class take it in summer school, which is online, which means they just cheat and are passed along without knowing the material. Also these days it's often really hard for a teacher to fail a kid in the first place.

I'd also like to blame iPads in the classroom, because often kids just open up Desmos and copy down the answers, but I'm not sure that is to blame.

Anonymous wrote:I work in Information Technology, get paid 250K per year for the past ten years, and I have never used math beyond Algebra.  

I was a math major, work in tech, and basically use algebra and statistics. Sure, I use the ability to think that I used in getting a math degree, but if you put a calculus problem in front of me now, there is no way I could solve it.

Personally, I think more kids should do multiple years of algebra in high school. Not ALL kids, there are plenty of very mathematically-inclined students who would be bored to tears and who finish calculus in 10th grade or whatever, and that's fine. But it's equally fine to take your time really learning algebraic concepts and mastering them before moving on.