Real talk. I am not a cheater now but I was in my teens/20s. When I stopped cheating I also had several relationships with “nice guys” that I desperately wanted to end. What would happen is that I could not admit I wanted out of the relationship, so I would effectively drive myself crazy with my inability to just move forward and get out of the relationship, resulting in severe anxiety and depression. Yeah I was a nightmare with no healthy sense of self. OP needs to *run* and gtf away from this guy, because he is a disaster and will never give her & their kids what theybdeserve/need.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can’t believe all the people suggesting DH is emotionally manipulating her - if he has really recognized how bad he screwed up and internalized it, he is probably mired in shame and suffering cognitive dissonance between how he sees himself/wants to see himself and what he did. Suicidal ideation under those circumstances is not shocking.

It’s this cognitive dissonance that PPs with experience in mental health crises and cheating are trying to say forms the basis of manipulation.

In cheating, the sexual behavior is hidden because the WH is engaging to meet an immediate need while lying to the victim spouse in order to manipulate her in to staying in the relationship in order to maintain the appearance of a “good guy” - whether that’s good husband, good father, popular person, whatever. As long as the WH can keep everything secret, he is able to maintain the cognitive dissonance.


BUT, when the cheating is revealed, the cognitive dissonance is in the open - WH thinks of himself as “good guy” but he is caught doing bad things and understands (or worries) that many people now see him as a “bad guy”.

Because these people are so fixated on having a positive public persona, they are unable to accept real responsibility and do the work to reconceptualize themselves as a less than perfect person who did something wrong and is try to be accountable and repair relationships.

While it’s true that being caught in a way that reveals the two dissonant faces (good guy/bad guy), what often happens is the WH refuses to face and integrate these two faces and instead engages in various behaviors that are designed to keep the victim spouse in any kind of relationship - because they see that as the only way to maintain the positive public persona (I did something bad but not so bad that she left or I did something but I’ve fixed it and I’m a good guy again and that’s why she’s staying). The attempts to maintain the good face could be continuing to lie, engaging in suicidal talk that is conveyed to the partner in a way that makes her responsible for his health and well-being, (“doing X makes em think about suicide”), promising change (but enacting it), self-flagellating so as to prompt partner to say it wasn’t that bad or he is forgiven.)

It is a misunderstanding to say that PPs are accusing OP’s WH of not actually being depressed or suicidal. OP absolutely can be depressed or suicidal AND also be engaging in a way that seeks to manipulate her into staying or supporting him. The point is that OP cannot react to her WH’s depression and suicidality by being responsible for his health or safety. Her job is to protect herself and the kids. Yes, she can help the WH see the pdoc or therapist. Yes, she can remove guns, knives, etc. so as to make self harm or harm to others more difficult. Yes, she can ask for social support from WH’s family, work and friends, but she must never hide the depression and suicidality or be responsible for fixing it ( because of course she has no knowledge or expertise to do so.)

Every threat or talk of suicide should be reported immediately to therapist or pdoc or person should be taken to the ER, the latter depending upon whether the person has engaged in suicidal ideation that includes a plan of how to suicide.

OP, for now, I would stop the relationship talk - whether alone or in therapy. It’s time to step back and let WH’s behavior speak for him. Is he hearing you say his depression and suicidal talk means he needs to go to pdoc and therapist and follow recommendations. Is he taking those steps (initially with guidance support for you and increasingly independently)?

I sincerely advise you to do a 180 and focus on building your and kids’ life. Improve career, increase earning power, increase your network and your kid’s network of support, focus on finances (have or make your own accounts, cut budget, increase savings, have copies of all joint savings, debt, equity, etc). It is clear that, possibility of divorce aside, you can no longer be in a position to not support yourself and the kids adequately.

DP - the bolded is true, but the reality in this case is that no one on this thread has any way of knowing whether it is true. Because it’s also true that the OP’s DH does not, in fact, have borderline personality disorder (which many PPs are dancing around) and is instead depressed and suicidal, absent the BPD. We don’t know. The OP doesn’t know. People are making assumptions based on the timing of the suicidality and the business trip, while mostly ignoring the timing of the suicidality after two weeks of intense stress and insufficient sleep.

Again, not saying the OP’s husband isn’t being manipulative - I’m not there, I have no clue. I’m saying that we’re all speculating on what’s going on, so let’s keep an open mind.

To be honest, it doesn’t really matter if he is BPD or “genuinely suicidal.” He is a loser threatening to drag OP down with him. She needs to save herself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can’t believe all the people suggesting DH is emotionally manipulating her - if he has really recognized how bad he screwed up and internalized it, he is probably mired in shame and suffering cognitive dissonance between how he sees himself/wants to see himself and what he did. Suicidal ideation under those circumstances is not shocking.

It’s this cognitive dissonance that PPs with experience in mental health crises and cheating are trying to say forms the basis of manipulation.

In cheating, the sexual behavior is hidden because the WH is engaging to meet an immediate need while lying to the victim spouse in order to manipulate her in to staying in the relationship in order to maintain the appearance of a “good guy” - whether that’s good husband, good father, popular person, whatever. As long as the WH can keep everything secret, he is able to maintain the cognitive dissonance.


BUT, when the cheating is revealed, the cognitive dissonance is in the open - WH thinks of himself as “good guy” but he is caught doing bad things and understands (or worries) that many people now see him as a “bad guy”.

Because these people are so fixated on having a positive public persona, they are unable to accept real responsibility and do the work to reconceptualize themselves as a less than perfect person who did something wrong and is try to be accountable and repair relationships.

While it’s true that being caught in a way that reveals the two dissonant faces (good guy/bad guy), what often happens is the WH refuses to face and integrate these two faces and instead engages in various behaviors that are designed to keep the victim spouse in any kind of relationship - because they see that as the only way to maintain the positive public persona (I did something bad but not so bad that she left or I did something but I’ve fixed it and I’m a good guy again and that’s why she’s staying). The attempts to maintain the good face could be continuing to lie, engaging in suicidal talk that is conveyed to the partner in a way that makes her responsible for his health and well-being, (“doing X makes em think about suicide”), promising change (but enacting it), self-flagellating so as to prompt partner to say it wasn’t that bad or he is forgiven.)

It is a misunderstanding to say that PPs are accusing OP’s WH of not actually being depressed or suicidal. OP absolutely can be depressed or suicidal AND also be engaging in a way that seeks to manipulate her into staying or supporting him. The point is that OP cannot react to her WH’s depression and suicidality by being responsible for his health or safety. Her job is to protect herself and the kids. Yes, she can help the WH see the pdoc or therapist. Yes, she can remove guns, knives, etc. so as to make self harm or harm to others more difficult. Yes, she can ask for social support from WH’s family, work and friends, but she must never hide the depression and suicidality or be responsible for fixing it ( because of course she has no knowledge or expertise to do so.)

Every threat or talk of suicide should be reported immediately to therapist or pdoc or person should be taken to the ER, the latter depending upon whether the person has engaged in suicidal ideation that includes a plan of how to suicide.

OP, for now, I would stop the relationship talk - whether alone or in therapy. It’s time to step back and let WH’s behavior speak for him. Is he hearing you say his depression and suicidal talk means he needs to go to pdoc and therapist and follow recommendations. Is he taking those steps (initially with guidance support for you and increasingly independently)?

I sincerely advise you to do a 180 and focus on building your and kids’ life. Improve career, increase earning power, increase your network and your kid’s network of support, focus on finances (have or make your own accounts, cut budget, increase savings, have copies of all joint savings, debt, equity, etc). It is clear that, possibility of divorce aside, you can no longer be in a position to not support yourself and the kids adequately.

DP - the bolded is true, but the reality in this case is that no one on this thread has any way of knowing whether it is true. Because it’s also true that the OP’s DH does not, in fact, have borderline personality disorder (which many PPs are dancing around) and is instead depressed and suicidal, absent the BPD. We don’t know. The OP doesn’t know. People are making assumptions based on the timing of the suicidality and the business trip, while mostly ignoring the timing of the suicidality after two weeks of intense stress and insufficient sleep.

Again, not saying the OP’s husband isn’t being manipulative - I’m not there, I have no clue. I’m saying that we’re all speculating on what’s going on, so let’s keep an open mind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cancelling or postponing a business trip because your spouse is in the hospital is not sacrificing your career.

+1

I think OP is in understandable fear that canceling her first trip after a promotion looks bad. And frankly it will to some. But if her DH gets hospitalized, she needs to treat it the same as if he'd been in a terrible car crash and was hospitalized -- who would leave in that circumstance? No one. It might be a short-term ding with a few managers at work but not with any decent manager.

The affair is a big part of the calculus for some PPs. Obviously need to make sure the kids are taken care of, but beyond that it's really optional for OP in terms of how much to be there for this DH.

Of course the affair is part of the calculus. But maybe OP doesn't want the father of her kids to be, you know, dead, or so mentally unbalanced he can't be a father as they grow up.

That doesn't mean she has to stay married to him or be his caretaker, but right NOW, today, this weekend, she is in the middle of an immediate crisis and has to get questions answered and arrangements made. "Being there for him" or not is kind of irrelevant here and now. She's asking in her OP about logistics, not "Should I be his caretaker, should I 'be there' for him..."

DP.

Nope.

OP is one person. Her meeting is important. She has to go. She can arrange to be back immediately after the meeting. He has other family that is willing to help. Let them step in.

No one is I dispensing, not even OP in this situation. She needs to arrange for her husband to be well taken care of, and then she needs to go do the adult ingredients for her family, especially for her kids. They might need this promotion soon.

JFC. You make those two things sound so f'ing simple: Get him taken care of, go on your work trip. You have no idea that logistically she may be unable to get him somewhere safe before the time she would have to leave. Even if he is faking as some here insist, she cannot possibly know that for sure, and she may be running out of time to get him to a place where she can feel confident he'll be safe so she can leave. Don't leap down my throat at the term "safe," either. Since she has no way to know if he's faking, she has to assume for rigtht now that he is not. So she has to get him to a place where she doesn't have to fear that she'll be off on a work trip and he'll do himself harm.

Doing that, and still making her trip in time, maybe be mutually exclusive, if her trip is this week. Blithely saing "she needs him to be well taken care of, then she needs to go" on her trip -- that's the ideal, not necessarily the reality.

I'm thinking you yourself have never had to try to get mental health help for someone in crisis. It is not as simple as drive them to a hospital and they'll magically be admitted. I am not saying she shouldn't do her work; I'm saying that she may not be able to get things arranged in time to do so. Unless of course you think it's fine for her to leave him with their children while he's like this -- even if he isnt' suicidal for real, he's zoned out. Is it fair on her? No. Does she still have to be the one to make arrangements for him at this point? Yes. As you put it: Especially for their kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cancelling or postponing a business trip because your spouse is in the hospital is not sacrificing your career.

+1

I think OP is in understandable fear that canceling her first trip after a promotion looks bad. And frankly it will to some. But if her DH gets hospitalized, she needs to treat it the same as if he'd been in a terrible car crash and was hospitalized -- who would leave in that circumstance? No one. It might be a short-term ding with a few managers at work but not with any decent manager.

The affair is a big part of the calculus for some PPs. Obviously need to make sure the kids are taken care of, but beyond that it's really optional for OP in terms of how much to be there for this DH.

Of course the affair is part of the calculus. But maybe OP doesn't want the father of her kids to be, you know, dead, or so mentally unbalanced he can't be a father as they grow up.

That doesn't mean she has to stay married to him or be his caretaker, but right NOW, today, this weekend, she is in the middle of an immediate crisis and has to get questions answered and arrangements made. "Being there for him" or not is kind of irrelevant here and now. She's asking in her OP about logistics, not "Should I be his caretaker, should I 'be there' for him..."

DP.

Nope.

OP is one person. Her meeting is important. She has to go. She can arrange to be back immediately after the meeting. He has other family that is willing to help. Let them step in.

No one is I dispensing, not even OP in this situation. She needs to arrange for her husband to be well taken care of, and then she needs to go do the adult ingredients for her family, especially for her kids. They might need this promotion soon.

JFC. You make those two things sound so f'ing simple: Get him taken care of, go on your work trip. You have no idea that logistically she may be unable to get him somewhere safe before the time she would have to leave. Even if he is faking as some here insist, she cannot possibly know that for sure, and she may be running out of time to get him to a place where she can feel confident he'll be safe so she can leave. Don't leap down my throat at the term "safe," either. Since she has no way to know if he's faking, she has to assume for rigtht now that he is not. So she has to get him to a place where she doesn't have to fear that she'll be off on a work trip and he'll do himself harm.

Doing that, and still making her trip in time, maybe be mutually exclusive, if her trip is this week. Blithely saing "she needs him to be well taken care of, then she needs to go" on her trip -- that's the ideal, not necessarily the reality.

I'm thinking you yourself have never had to try to get mental health help for someone in crisis. It is not as simple as drive them to a hospital and they'll magically be admitted. I am not saying she shouldn't do her work; I'm saying that she may not be able to get things arranged in time to do so. Unless of course you think it's fine for her to leave him with their children while he's like this -- even if he isnt' suicidal for real, he's zoned out. Is it fair on her? No. Does she still have to be the one to make arrangements for him at this point? Yes. As you put it: Especially for their kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can’t believe all the people suggesting DH is emotionally manipulating her - if he has really recognized how bad he screwed up and internalized it, he is probably mired in shame and suffering cognitive dissonance between how he sees himself/wants to see himself and what he did. Suicidal ideation under those circumstances is not shocking.

It’s this cognitive dissonance that PPs with experience in mental health crises and cheating are trying to say forms the basis of manipulation.

In cheating, the sexual behavior is hidden because the WH is engaging to meet an immediate need while lying to the victim spouse in order to manipulate her in to staying in the relationship in order to maintain the appearance of a “good guy” - whether that’s good husband, good father, popular person, whatever. As long as the WH can keep everything secret, he is able to maintain the cognitive dissonance.


BUT, when the cheating is revealed, the cognitive dissonance is in the open - WH thinks of himself as “good guy” but he is caught doing bad things and understands (or worries) that many people now see him as a “bad guy”.

Because these people are so fixated on having a positive public persona, they are unable to accept real responsibility and do the work to reconceptualize themselves as a less than perfect person who did something wrong and is try to be accountable and repair relationships.

While it’s true that being caught in a way that reveals the two dissonant faces (good guy/bad guy), what often happens is the WH refuses to face and integrate these two faces and instead engages in various behaviors that are designed to keep the victim spouse in any kind of relationship - because they see that as the only way to maintain the positive public persona (I did something bad but not so bad that she left or I did something but I’ve fixed it and I’m a good guy again and that’s why she’s staying). The attempts to maintain the good face could be continuing to lie, engaging in suicidal talk that is conveyed to the partner in a way that makes her responsible for his health and well-being, (“doing X makes em think about suicide”), promising change (but enacting it), self-flagellating so as to prompt partner to say it wasn’t that bad or he is forgiven.)

It is a misunderstanding to say that PPs are accusing OP’s WH of not actually being depressed or suicidal. OP absolutely can be depressed or suicidal AND also be engaging in a way that seeks to manipulate her into staying or supporting him. The point is that OP cannot react to her WH’s depression and suicidality by being responsible for his health or safety. Her job is to protect herself and the kids. Yes, she can help the WH see the pdoc or therapist. Yes, she can remove guns, knives, etc. so as to make self harm or harm to others more difficult. Yes, she can ask for social support from WH’s family, work and friends, but she must never hide the depression and suicidality or be responsible for fixing it ( because of course she has no knowledge or expertise to do so.)

Every threat or talk of suicide should be reported immediately to therapist or pdoc or person should be taken to the ER, the latter depending upon whether the person has engaged in suicidal ideation that includes a plan of how to suicide.

OP, for now, I would stop the relationship talk - whether alone or in therapy. It’s time to step back and let WH’s behavior speak for him. Is he hearing you say his depression and suicidal talk means he needs to go to pdoc and therapist and follow recommendations. Is he taking those steps (initially with guidance support for you and increasingly independently)?

I sincerely advise you to do a 180 and focus on building your and kids’ life. Improve career, increase earning power, increase your network and your kid’s network of support, focus on finances (have or make your own accounts, cut budget, increase savings, have copies of all joint savings, debt, equity, etc). It is clear that, possibility of divorce aside, you can no longer be in a position to not support yourself and the kids adequately.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cancelling or postponing a business trip because your spouse is in the hospital is not sacrificing your career.

+1

I think OP is in understandable fear that canceling her first trip after a promotion looks bad. And frankly it will to some. But if her DH gets hospitalized, she needs to treat it the same as if he'd been in a terrible car crash and was hospitalized -- who would leave in that circumstance? No one. It might be a short-term ding with a few managers at work but not with any decent manager.

The affair is a big part of the calculus for some PPs. Obviously need to make sure the kids are taken care of, but beyond that it's really optional for OP in terms of how much to be there for this DH.

Of course the affair is part of the calculus. But maybe OP doesn't want the father of her kids to be, you know, dead, or so mentally unbalanced he can't be a father as they grow up.

That doesn't mean she has to stay married to him or be his caretaker, but right NOW, today, this weekend, she is in the middle of an immediate crisis and has to get questions answered and arrangements made. "Being there for him" or not is kind of irrelevant here and now. She's asking in her OP about logistics, not "Should I be his caretaker, should I 'be there' for him..."

DP.

Nope.

OP is one person. Her meeting is important. She has to go. She can arrange to be back immediately after the meeting. He has other family that is willing to help. Let them step in.

No one is I dispensing, not even OP in this situation. She needs to arrange for her husband to be well taken care of, and then she needs to go do the adult ingredients for her family, especially for her kids. They might need this promotion soon.

JFC. You make those two things sound so f'ing simple: Get him taken care of, go on your work trip. You have no idea that logistically she may be unable to get him somewhere safe before the time she would have to leave. Even if he is faking as some here insist, she cannot possibly know that for sure, and she may be running out of time to get him to a place where she can feel confident he'll be safe so she can leave. Don't leap down my throat at the term "safe," either. Since she has no way to know if he's faking, she has to assume for rigtht now that he is not. So she has to get him to a place where she doesn't have to fear that she'll be off on a work trip and he'll do himself harm.

Doing that, and still making her trip in time, maybe be mutually exclusive, if her trip is this week. Blithely saing "she needs him to be well taken care of, then she needs to go" on her trip -- that's the ideal, not necessarily the reality.

I'm thinking you yourself have never had to try to get mental health help for someone in crisis. It is not as simple as drive them to a hospital and they'll magically be admitted. I am not saying she shouldn't do her work; I'm saying that she may not be able to get things arranged in time to do so. Unless of course you think it's fine for her to leave him with their children while he's like this -- even if he isnt' suicidal for real, he's zoned out. Is it fair on her? No. Does she still have to be the one to make arrangements for him at this point? Yes. As you put it: Especially for their kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cancelling or postponing a business trip because your spouse is in the hospital is not sacrificing your career.

+1

I think OP is in understandable fear that canceling her first trip after a promotion looks bad. And frankly it will to some. But if her DH gets hospitalized, she needs to treat it the same as if he'd been in a terrible car crash and was hospitalized -- who would leave in that circumstance? No one. It might be a short-term ding with a few managers at work but not with any decent manager.

The affair is a big part of the calculus for some PPs. Obviously need to make sure the kids are taken care of, but beyond that it's really optional for OP in terms of how much to be there for this DH.

Of course the affair is part of the calculus. But maybe OP doesn't want the father of her kids to be, you know, dead, or so mentally unbalanced he can't be a father as they grow up.

That doesn't mean she has to stay married to him or be his caretaker, but right NOW, today, this weekend, she is in the middle of an immediate crisis and has to get questions answered and arrangements made. "Being there for him" or not is kind of irrelevant here and now. She's asking in her OP about logistics, not "Should I be his caretaker, should I 'be there' for him..."

DP.

Nope.

OP is one person. Her meeting is important. She has to go. She can arrange to be back immediately after the meeting. He has other family that is willing to help. Let them step in.

No one is I dispensing, not even OP in this situation. She needs to arrange for her husband to be well taken care of, and then she needs to go do the adult ingredients for her family, especially for her kids. They might need this promotion soon.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can’t believe all the people suggesting DH is emotionally manipulating her - if he has really recognized how bad he screwed up and internalized it, he is probably mired in shame and suffering cognitive dissonance between how he sees himself/wants to see himself and what he did. Suicidal ideation under those circumstances is not shocking.

It’s this cognitive dissonance that PPs with experience in mental health crises and cheating are trying to say forms the basis of manipulation.

In cheating, the sexual behavior is hidden because the WH is engaging to meet an immediate need while lying to the victim spouse in order to manipulate her in to staying in the relationship in order to maintain the appearance of a “good guy” - whether that’s good husband, good father, popular person, whatever. As long as the WH can keep everything secret, he is able to maintain the cognitive dissonance.


BUT, when the cheating is revealed, the cognitive dissonance is in the open - WH thinks of himself as “good guy” but he is caught doing bad things and understands (or worries) that many people now see him as a “bad guy”.

Because these people are so fixated on having a positive public persona, they are unable to accept real responsibility and do the work to reconceptualize themselves as a less than perfect person who did something wrong and is try to be accountable and repair relationships.

While it’s true that being caught in a way that reveals the two dissonant faces (good guy/bad guy), what often happens is the WH refuses to face and integrate these two faces and instead engages in various behaviors that are designed to keep the victim spouse in any kind of relationship - because they see that as the only way to maintain the positive public persona (I did something bad but not so bad that she left or I did something but I’ve fixed it and I’m a good guy again and that’s why she’s staying). The attempts to maintain the good face could be continuing to lie, engaging in suicidal talk that is conveyed to the partner in a way that makes her responsible for his health and well-being, (“doing X makes em think about suicide”), promising change (but enacting it), self-flagellating so as to prompt partner to say it wasn’t that bad or he is forgiven.)

It is a misunderstanding to say that PPs are accusing OP’s WH of not actually being depressed or suicidal. OP absolutely can be depressed or suicidal AND also be engaging in a way that seeks to manipulate her into staying or supporting him. The point is that OP cannot react to her WH’s depression and suicidality by being responsible for his health or safety. Her job is to protect herself and the kids. Yes, she can help the WH see the pdoc or therapist. Yes, she can remove guns, knives, etc. so as to make self harm or harm to others more difficult. Yes, she can ask for social support from WH’s family, work and friends, but she must never hide the depression and suicidality or be responsible for fixing it ( because of course she has no knowledge or expertise to do so.)

Every threat or talk of suicide should be reported immediately to therapist or pdoc or person should be taken to the ER, the latter depending upon whether the person has engaged in suicidal ideation that includes a plan of how to suicide.

OP, for now, I would stop the relationship talk - whether alone or in therapy. It’s time to step back and let WH’s behavior speak for him. Is he hearing you say his depression and suicidal talk means he needs to go to pdoc and therapist and follow recommendations. Is he taking those steps (initially with guidance support for you and increasingly independently)?

I sincerely advise you to do a 180 and focus on building your and kids’ life. Improve career, increase earning power, increase your network and your kid’s network of support, focus on finances (have or make your own accounts, cut budget, increase savings, have copies of all joint savings, debt, equity, etc). It is clear that, possibility of divorce aside, you can no longer be in a position to not support yourself and the kids adequately.

Anonymous wrote:Can’t believe all the people suggesting DH is emotionally manipulating her - if he has really recognized how bad he screwed up and internalized it, he is probably mired in shame and suffering cognitive dissonance between how he sees himself/wants to see himself and what he did. Suicidal ideation under those circumstances is not shocking.