The anti-BSA types just can’t avoid the opportunity to engage in another BSA misrepresentation screed.

At the elementary school level, the Cub Scout groups called a “Den” (8 – 12 children) meet entirely separately as either all-girl or all-boy groups. The only time boy and girl Dens might each other is at larger monthly “Pack” meetings, but the boy and girl dens are pretty much unto themselves even then. For the junior high/younger high school ages, the Scout BSA groups called a “Troop” (15 – 50 children) meet entirely separate from each other and there is no interaction between boys and girls. So no, there is no real opportunity in the BSA for boys and girls to be compared to each other based on misplaced views of differing standards by gender.

Girls, boys, trans kids and every other variety of child is welcome in the BSA. After having been a volunteer with the BSA for over 40 years, I have yet to come across a family who wants their boy to join Girl Scouts. The BSA can serve all of their needs -- and these families are not attracted to an organization that discriminates against their child.

Anonymous wrote:My dad was a scout growing up in the 50's. Based on what he said about it, I signed up too. Unfortunately my experience was way different from his. He grew up in a predominantly Jewish area of a big city where most of the other boys were Jews too. I grew up in a small southern town where we met in a church and it felt like a Christian organization. I quit after 3 years...but at least I never got molested?

And I'm sure in your dad's town it felt like a Jewish organization. Not sure of your point. You probably felt that way in a small southern town anyway whether you were in boy scouts or not. Now it's mostly a non-denominational group except for a few troops that cater more religious. You can pick the troop you want to join.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe having to excel in two spheres (work and home) is easier for women, on avg, and harder for men, on avg. Combine that with the fact that women, on average, don't withhold sex until marriage, you're going to see an increasing number of males not striving to be the best version of themselves.

If the past 50 years can be considered a success for women, someone else is going to be less successful. Social and political revolutions always have knock on effects.

Financial independence is nothing to sneer at, but there are always going to be trade offs and making men less essential could very well mean that their incentives to fulfill our ideals as husband's as father's have been cratered.

Agree, there isn't much incentive today for males to strive to be the best version of themselves.

And what is the best version of manhood? As far as I can tell from this thread it's to be a good feminist. Do we raise our daughters with that sort of reverence and respect for the capabilities of men? My 8 year old son sees all of the girl power stuff my daughter has. There are no 'boy power' t-shirts and stickers.

Oh, FFS. You cannot be this dim. You sound like the people whining about the Black Entertainment Channel and its awards show. “Boo-hoo, where is the WHITE Entertainment Channel/Awards??? WAAAAH!!”

It’s every other damn channel, Chad.

Inventing a white guy to get mad and getting mad at him

Lol

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Matchmakers (women) are quitting because single women have become completely unreasonable with their wish lists and high standards. The men are dating younger or are dating foreign women.

So, yes.

+1

American women have a captive audience. The vast majority of men never seek out women from other countries and it's 100% their fault. The difference in quality is night and day. I've yet to find an American male expat who prefers American women.

When I lived in Europe and met a newly arrived, single American woman out like at a networking event, all us jaded expats would start taking bets on how long she'd last. Few made it to the 6 month mark. They were so used to getting attention in the US, but the expat and local men preferred the local women for various reasons.

It’s the “various reasons” bits that are fascinating…

Probably reasons like:

Have class
Kind
Affectionate
Caring
Fun
Non frumpy appearance
Won't stuff face with entire large deep dish pizza
Spontaneous
Hot body
Not obsessed with career

American women used to have some of these qualities. The gap has widened considerably over the years. Why is it that literally a continent full of men will not touch american women?

Nobody is all that impressed with people who identify as ex-pats, men or women -- not in general. They tend not to be the achieving, got-it-together types.

Maybe you are getting your info from 90 Day Fiance? Every ex-pat I know is financially independent and speaks another language. Every once in awhile I run into a digital nomad type, but everyone else has $$$$.

I'm upper-middle-class in the US, and filthy rich in India.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matchmakers (women) are quitting because single women have become completely unreasonable with their wish lists and high standards. The men are dating younger or are dating foreign women.

So, yes.

+1

American women have a captive audience. The vast majority of men never seek out women from other countries and it's 100% their fault. The difference in quality is night and day. I've yet to find an American male expat who prefers American women.

When I lived in Europe and met a newly arrived, single American woman out like at a networking event, all us jaded expats would start taking bets on how long she'd last. Few made it to the 6 month mark. They were so used to getting attention in the US, but the expat and local men preferred the local women for various reasons.

It’s the “various reasons” bits that are fascinating…

Probably reasons like:

Have class
Kind
Affectionate
Caring
Fun
Non frumpy appearance
Won't stuff face with entire large deep dish pizza
Spontaneous
Hot body
Not obsessed with career

American women used to have some of these qualities. The gap has widened considerably over the years. Why is it that literally a continent full of men will not touch american women?

Nobody is all that impressed with people who identify as ex-pats, men or women -- not in general. They tend not to be the achieving, got-it-together types.

Maybe you are getting your info from 90 Day Fiance? Every ex-pat I know is financially independent and speaks another language. Every once in awhile I run into a digital nomad type, but everyone else has $$$$.

My dad was a scout growing up in the 50's. Based on what he said about it, I signed up too. Unfortunately my experience was way different from his. He grew up in a predominantly Jewish area of a big city where most of the other boys were Jews too. I grew up in a small southern town where we met in a church and it felt like a Christian organization. I quit after 3 years...but at least I never got molested?

BSA has slowed due to covid and less people into activities that have a religious connection. In addition there are now more conservative scout groups which some of the kids who would have done scouts now go to. But the national capital boy scout troops are well run and very popular. If you left before 5th grade you didn't even try them out. Cub scouts ends in 4th grade so to me all this says is that you gave up because of "the girls" without even trying it.

My guess is that a lot of kids don't do boy scouts past 4th grade because there are other options for them. I haven't seen any change in enrollment at our troop and my oldest child boy scouts before this change. The new classes are the same size or even larger since covid. Covid slowed down enrollment.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe having to excel in two spheres (work and home) is easier for women, on avg, and harder for men, on avg. Combine that with the fact that women, on average, don't withhold sex until marriage, you're going to see an increasing number of males not striving to be the best version of themselves.

If the past 50 years can be considered a success for women, someone else is going to be less successful. Social and political revolutions always have knock on effects.

Financial independence is nothing to sneer at, but there are always going to be trade offs and making men less essential could very well mean that their incentives to fulfill our ideals as husband's as father's have been cratered.

Agree, there isn't much incentive today for males to strive to be the best version of themselves.

And what is the best version of manhood? As far as I can tell from this thread it's to be a good feminist. Do we raise our daughters with that sort of reverence and respect for the capabilities of men? My 8 year old son sees all of the girl power stuff my daughter has. There are no 'boy power' t-shirts and stickers.

Oh, FFS. You cannot be this dim. You sound like the people whining about the Black Entertainment Channel and its awards show. “Boo-hoo, where is the WHITE Entertainment Channel/Awards??? WAAAAH!!”

It’s every other damn channel, Chad.

Inventing a guy to get mad and getting mad at him

And believe it or not I'm a mom. Here's another example. My son's been in cub scouts. This year several girls joined the troop. They're lovely but the vibe has totally changed an d I dont see these boys sticking around for 4th grade. And don't tell me they should suck it up and make room for them. No one would ask that of my daughters girl scout troop bc a bunch of 8 yo boys running around would kill the vibe of those meetings too.

Or take the very structure of the typical school day. Is it better suited for the avg girl or the avg boy? What's it like to go into an environment day in and day out that feels stifling? This can apply to plenty of girls too but I'm taking about the population at large here. How does this play out at scale?

You all keep pointing to actual media channels and power players when what I'm saying is that the lives of young kids are structured in a way that views boys as defective girls. What kind of men will those boys become?

The organization you signed your son up to participate in abused young boys so systematically over so many years that it was facing extinction if girls weren’t allowed to join.

So yeah. What kind of men **will** these boys become that their parents register them to participate in organizations that abuse children and then blame the girls for its flaws? Sounds like the kind of men who will have learned— sadly from their mothers— misogyny very early.

The vibe has changed for the better at our troop although I will say the volunteering is tough for the girls. So many women volunteers needed that don't want to participate. The girls are way more put together and make eagle often 2 years before the boys.

I’m glad it’s a positive experience for you, but the person I was quoting is complaining that a few girls are “changing the vibe” for her son as though the girls— and not the systemic issues that led BSA to admit women— are the issue. If you always are told that everything you don’t like isn’t fair to you because of “the girls” then yeah, her son is going to grow up a self-pitying misogynist and it will be her fault.

I'm the mom you're calling a misogynist. It's not girl-hating to note that boys and girls behave differently in co-ed vs single-sex groups. There's a lot about manhood that can only be learned through positive male role models. If you think women can come in and show them how it should be done or how it should be done better, no wonder the men know they can never meet women's standards.

For the record, I went to all-girls schools for both high school and college and it was a gift to be able to grow physically, emotionally and intellectually without the presence of the opposite sex. Boys deserve to have those spaces too but they've all been taken away b/c if girls aren't allowed, then it must be patriarchal.

It is girl hating to say the girls have “changed the vibe” and blame them for the boys not continuing in boyscouts. That’s either an organizational problem if BSA isn’t equipped to have good groups, or it’s a problem with the boys lacking grit and commitment, but blaming it on the presence of girls is just boring, run of the mill, misogyny. And it’s a horrid example for your son to teach him his failings should be blamed on girls out-performing him.

I literally said right after that that boys coming into my daughter's girl scout group would change their vibe, too. I must just be a misanthrope who hates all of humanity.

Boys won’t be invited into Girl Scouts because the systemic abuses the BSA carried out against children did not occur in Girl Scouts. You are blaming the girls for the faults of the organization while complaining that the organization no longer holds the interest of boys past fourth grade. Where is BSA, and your own, responsibility here? Or is it just those pesky girls?

Why don't you just say you think boys are inferior to girls and be done with it. You attack me, you attack a nat'l organization. But you're totally ignoring any point I making about why single-sex experiences can be critical paths for identity formation on the path to adulthood.

Why would I think boys are inferior to girls when the subsequent poster about BSA said how she felt the vibe was *better* with the girls? Obviously in the DCUM area there are boys who thrive and excel even when measured against girls, and, one assumes, those are the boys whose parents don’t blame the existence of the girls for their failures.

It’s more accurate to say I think boys who are raised to blame their failures on the fact that there are girls who out-perform them are inferior, and those are the ones who will not achieve the higher standards expected of them in the future. I’m sure you’ll blame the girls foe that too.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe having to excel in two spheres (work and home) is easier for women, on avg, and harder for men, on avg. Combine that with the fact that women, on average, don't withhold sex until marriage, you're going to see an increasing number of males not striving to be the best version of themselves.

If the past 50 years can be considered a success for women, someone else is going to be less successful. Social and political revolutions always have knock on effects.

Financial independence is nothing to sneer at, but there are always going to be trade offs and making men less essential could very well mean that their incentives to fulfill our ideals as husband's as father's have been cratered.

Agree, there isn't much incentive today for males to strive to be the best version of themselves.

And what is the best version of manhood? As far as I can tell from this thread it's to be a good feminist. Do we raise our daughters with that sort of reverence and respect for the capabilities of men? My 8 year old son sees all of the girl power stuff my daughter has. There are no 'boy power' t-shirts and stickers.

Oh, FFS. You cannot be this dim. You sound like the people whining about the Black Entertainment Channel and its awards show. “Boo-hoo, where is the WHITE Entertainment Channel/Awards??? WAAAAH!!”

It’s every other damn channel, Chad.

Inventing a guy to get mad and getting mad at him

And believe it or not I'm a mom. Here's another example. My son's been in cub scouts. This year several girls joined the troop. They're lovely but the vibe has totally changed an d I dont see these boys sticking around for 4th grade. And don't tell me they should suck it up and make room for them. No one would ask that of my daughters girl scout troop bc a bunch of 8 yo boys running around would kill the vibe of those meetings too.

Or take the very structure of the typical school day. Is it better suited for the avg girl or the avg boy? What's it like to go into an environment day in and day out that feels stifling? This can apply to plenty of girls too but I'm taking about the population at large here. How does this play out at scale?

You all keep pointing to actual media channels and power players when what I'm saying is that the lives of young kids are structured in a way that views boys as defective girls. What kind of men will those boys become?

The organization you signed your son up to participate in abused young boys so systematically over so many years that it was facing extinction if girls weren’t allowed to join.

So yeah. What kind of men **will** these boys become that their parents register them to participate in organizations that abuse children and then blame the girls for its flaws? Sounds like the kind of men who will have learned— sadly from their mothers— misogyny very early.

The vibe has changed for the better at our troop although I will say the volunteering is tough for the girls. So many women volunteers needed that don't want to participate. The girls are way more put together and make eagle often 2 years before the boys.

I’m glad it’s a positive experience for you, but the person I was quoting is complaining that a few girls are “changing the vibe” for her son as though the girls— and not the systemic issues that led BSA to admit women— are the issue. If you always are told that everything you don’t like isn’t fair to you because of “the girls” then yeah, her son is going to grow up a self-pitying misogynist and it will be her fault.

I'm the mom you're calling a misogynist. It's not girl-hating to note that boys and girls behave differently in co-ed vs single-sex groups. There's a lot about manhood that can only be learned through positive male role models. If you think women can come in and show them how it should be done or how it should be done better, no wonder the men know they can never meet women's standards.

For the record, I went to all-girls schools for both high school and college and it was a gift to be able to grow physically, emotionally and intellectually without the presence of the opposite sex. Boys deserve to have those spaces too but they've all been taken away b/c if girls aren't allowed, then it must be patriarchal.

It is girl hating to say the girls have “changed the vibe” and blame them for the boys not continuing in boyscouts. That’s either an organizational problem if BSA isn’t equipped to have good groups, or it’s a problem with the boys lacking grit and commitment, but blaming it on the presence of girls is just boring, run of the mill, misogyny. And it’s a horrid example for your son to teach him his failings should be blamed on girls out-performing him.

I literally said right after that that boys coming into my daughter's girl scout group would change their vibe, too. I must just be a misanthrope who hates all of humanity.

Boys won’t be invited into Girl Scouts because the systemic abuses the BSA carried out against children did not occur in Girl Scouts. You are blaming the girls for the faults of the organization while complaining that the organization no longer holds the interest of boys past fourth grade. Where is BSA, and your own, responsibility here? Or is it just those pesky girls?

Why don't you just say you think boys are inferior to girls and be done with it. You attack me, you attack a nat'l organization. But you're totally ignoring any point I making about why single-sex experiences can be critical paths for identity formation on the path to adulthood.

Then maybe the nat'l organization shouldn't have bankrupted itself out settlements because it had no problem with pedo volunteers

It also still continues religious traditions. I'm not sorry all the sex abuse came out and I think adding girls has been a great addition to both keep and expand the program. The troops are still separate so for the most part my kid is only with boys. It's just some of the all troop activities where they are together. We disagree.

Anonymous wrote:Women don't HAVE to settle. We don't NEED a man. A good man is nice to have. But - key word being "good" - hard to find. Not interested in putting myself at the mercy of a man who may decide to cheat, leave, waste my money, whatever. Demand sex whether I want it or not, or he gets in a mood. Be grumpy and judgey about my weight or grey hair or whatever.

I'd love to have a relationship but not interested in the risks and baggage.

who hurt you?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe having to excel in two spheres (work and home) is easier for women, on avg, and harder for men, on avg. Combine that with the fact that women, on average, don't withhold sex until marriage, you're going to see an increasing number of males not striving to be the best version of themselves.

If the past 50 years can be considered a success for women, someone else is going to be less successful. Social and political revolutions always have knock on effects.

Financial independence is nothing to sneer at, but there are always going to be trade offs and making men less essential could very well mean that their incentives to fulfill our ideals as husband's as father's have been cratered.

Agree, there isn't much incentive today for males to strive to be the best version of themselves.

And what is the best version of manhood? As far as I can tell from this thread it's to be a good feminist. Do we raise our daughters with that sort of reverence and respect for the capabilities of men? My 8 year old son sees all of the girl power stuff my daughter has. There are no 'boy power' t-shirts and stickers.

Oh, FFS. You cannot be this dim. You sound like the people whining about the Black Entertainment Channel and its awards show. “Boo-hoo, where is the WHITE Entertainment Channel/Awards??? WAAAAH!!”

It’s every other damn channel, Chad.

Inventing a guy to get mad and getting mad at him

And believe it or not I'm a mom. Here's another example. My son's been in cub scouts. This year several girls joined the troop. They're lovely but the vibe has totally changed an d I dont see these boys sticking around for 4th grade. And don't tell me they should suck it up and make room for them. No one would ask that of my daughters girl scout troop bc a bunch of 8 yo boys running around would kill the vibe of those meetings too.

Or take the very structure of the typical school day. Is it better suited for the avg girl or the avg boy? What's it like to go into an environment day in and day out that feels stifling? This can apply to plenty of girls too but I'm taking about the population at large here. How does this play out at scale?

You all keep pointing to actual media channels and power players when what I'm saying is that the lives of young kids are structured in a way that views boys as defective girls. What kind of men will those boys become?

The organization you signed your son up to participate in abused young boys so systematically over so many years that it was facing extinction if girls weren’t allowed to join.

So yeah. What kind of men **will** these boys become that their parents register them to participate in organizations that abuse children and then blame the girls for its flaws? Sounds like the kind of men who will have learned— sadly from their mothers— misogyny very early.

The vibe has changed for the better at our troop although I will say the volunteering is tough for the girls. So many women volunteers needed that don't want to participate. The girls are way more put together and make eagle often 2 years before the boys.

I’m glad it’s a positive experience for you, but the person I was quoting is complaining that a few girls are “changing the vibe” for her son as though the girls— and not the systemic issues that led BSA to admit women— are the issue. If you always are told that everything you don’t like isn’t fair to you because of “the girls” then yeah, her son is going to grow up a self-pitying misogynist and it will be her fault.

I'm the mom you're calling a misogynist. It's not girl-hating to note that boys and girls behave differently in co-ed vs single-sex groups. There's a lot about manhood that can only be learned through positive male role models. If you think women can come in and show them how it should be done or how it should be done better, no wonder the men know they can never meet women's standards.

For the record, I went to all-girls schools for both high school and college and it was a gift to be able to grow physically, emotionally and intellectually without the presence of the opposite sex. Boys deserve to have those spaces too but they've all been taken away b/c if girls aren't allowed, then it must be patriarchal.

It is girl hating to say the girls have “changed the vibe” and blame them for the boys not continuing in boyscouts. That’s either an organizational problem if BSA isn’t equipped to have good groups, or it’s a problem with the boys lacking grit and commitment, but blaming it on the presence of girls is just boring, run of the mill, misogyny. And it’s a horrid example for your son to teach him his failings should be blamed on girls out-performing him.

I literally said right after that that boys coming into my daughter's girl scout group would change their vibe, too. I must just be a misanthrope who hates all of humanity.

Boys won’t be invited into Girl Scouts because the systemic abuses the BSA carried out against children did not occur in Girl Scouts. You are blaming the girls for the faults of the organization while complaining that the organization no longer holds the interest of boys past fourth grade. Where is BSA, and your own, responsibility here? Or is it just those pesky girls?

Why don't you just say you think boys are inferior to girls and be done with it. You attack me, you attack a nat'l organization. But you're totally ignoring any point I making about why single-sex experiences can be critical paths for identity formation on the path to adulthood.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe having to excel in two spheres (work and home) is easier for women, on avg, and harder for men, on avg. Combine that with the fact that women, on average, don't withhold sex until marriage, you're going to see an increasing number of males not striving to be the best version of themselves.

If the past 50 years can be considered a success for women, someone else is going to be less successful. Social and political revolutions always have knock on effects.

Financial independence is nothing to sneer at, but there are always going to be trade offs and making men less essential could very well mean that their incentives to fulfill our ideals as husband's as father's have been cratered.

Agree, there isn't much incentive today for males to strive to be the best version of themselves.

And what is the best version of manhood? As far as I can tell from this thread it's to be a good feminist. Do we raise our daughters with that sort of reverence and respect for the capabilities of men? My 8 year old son sees all of the girl power stuff my daughter has. There are no 'boy power' t-shirts and stickers.

Oh, FFS. You cannot be this dim. You sound like the people whining about the Black Entertainment Channel and its awards show. “Boo-hoo, where is the WHITE Entertainment Channel/Awards??? WAAAAH!!”

It’s every other damn channel, Chad.

Inventing a guy to get mad and getting mad at him

And believe it or not I'm a mom. Here's another example. My son's been in cub scouts. This year several girls joined the troop. They're lovely but the vibe has totally changed an d I dont see these boys sticking around for 4th grade. And don't tell me they should suck it up and make room for them. No one would ask that of my daughters girl scout troop bc a bunch of 8 yo boys running around would kill the vibe of those meetings too.

Or take the very structure of the typical school day. Is it better suited for the avg girl or the avg boy? What's it like to go into an environment day in and day out that feels stifling? This can apply to plenty of girls too but I'm taking about the population at large here. How does this play out at scale?

You all keep pointing to actual media channels and power players when what I'm saying is that the lives of young kids are structured in a way that views boys as defective girls. What kind of men will those boys become?

The organization you signed your son up to participate in abused young boys so systematically over so many years that it was facing extinction if girls weren’t allowed to join.

So yeah. What kind of men **will** these boys become that their parents register them to participate in organizations that abuse children and then blame the girls for its flaws? Sounds like the kind of men who will have learned— sadly from their mothers— misogyny very early.

The vibe has changed for the better at our troop although I will say the volunteering is tough for the girls. So many women volunteers needed that don't want to participate. The girls are way more put together and make eagle often 2 years before the boys.

I’m glad it’s a positive experience for you, but the person I was quoting is complaining that a few girls are “changing the vibe” for her son as though the girls— and not the systemic issues that led BSA to admit women— are the issue. If you always are told that everything you don’t like isn’t fair to you because of “the girls” then yeah, her son is going to grow up a self-pitying misogynist and it will be her fault.

I'm the mom you're calling a misogynist. It's not girl-hating to note that boys and girls behave differently in co-ed vs single-sex groups. There's a lot about manhood that can only be learned through positive male role models. If you think women can come in and show them how it should be done or how it should be done better, no wonder the men know they can never meet women's standards.

For the record, I went to all-girls schools for both high school and college and it was a gift to be able to grow physically, emotionally and intellectually without the presence of the opposite sex. Boys deserve to have those spaces too but they've all been taken away b/c if girls aren't allowed, then it must be patriarchal.

The families asked for it because they wanted a place for both of their kids so it was a homegrown request. In addition, they did so because they had so many lawsuits against them as a result of too many males going unchecked. Would you rather the program just die? Because that was it was about to do. You are comparing the old program against the new program but that wasn't the trajectory the scouts had to consider.

My son is learning how to work harder at scouts and is learning better communication skills with the women. He views women as equals and actually has more enthusiasm for the work. Both men and women celebrate eagle scouts so now there are more people who hold it in high regard. They haven't changed the badges at all. I think it's been a positive change to make it more of a family experience.

I think some people held scouts in high regard before. When I've talked to men my age though a lot of talk about it was that it was more for kids who weren't into sports. I don't think it had the macho look you think it did.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe having to excel in two spheres (work and home) is easier for women, on avg, and harder for men, on avg. Combine that with the fact that women, on average, don't withhold sex until marriage, you're going to see an increasing number of males not striving to be the best version of themselves.

If the past 50 years can be considered a success for women, someone else is going to be less successful. Social and political revolutions always have knock on effects.

Financial independence is nothing to sneer at, but there are always going to be trade offs and making men less essential could very well mean that their incentives to fulfill our ideals as husband's as father's have been cratered.

Agree, there isn't much incentive today for males to strive to be the best version of themselves.

And what is the best version of manhood? As far as I can tell from this thread it's to be a good feminist. Do we raise our daughters with that sort of reverence and respect for the capabilities of men? My 8 year old son sees all of the girl power stuff my daughter has. There are no 'boy power' t-shirts and stickers.

Oh, FFS. You cannot be this dim. You sound like the people whining about the Black Entertainment Channel and its awards show. “Boo-hoo, where is the WHITE Entertainment Channel/Awards??? WAAAAH!!”

It’s every other damn channel, Chad.

Inventing a guy to get mad and getting mad at him

And believe it or not I'm a mom. Here's another example. My son's been in cub scouts. This year several girls joined the troop. They're lovely but the vibe has totally changed an d I dont see these boys sticking around for 4th grade. And don't tell me they should suck it up and make room for them. No one would ask that of my daughters girl scout troop bc a bunch of 8 yo boys running around would kill the vibe of those meetings too.

Or take the very structure of the typical school day. Is it better suited for the avg girl or the avg boy? What's it like to go into an environment day in and day out that feels stifling? This can apply to plenty of girls too but I'm taking about the population at large here. How does this play out at scale?

You all keep pointing to actual media channels and power players when what I'm saying is that the lives of young kids are structured in a way that views boys as defective girls. What kind of men will those boys become?

The organization you signed your son up to participate in abused young boys so systematically over so many years that it was facing extinction if girls weren’t allowed to join.

So yeah. What kind of men **will** these boys become that their parents register them to participate in organizations that abuse children and then blame the girls for its flaws? Sounds like the kind of men who will have learned— sadly from their mothers— misogyny very early.

The vibe has changed for the better at our troop although I will say the volunteering is tough for the girls. So many women volunteers needed that don't want to participate. The girls are way more put together and make eagle often 2 years before the boys.

I’m glad it’s a positive experience for you, but the person I was quoting is complaining that a few girls are “changing the vibe” for her son as though the girls— and not the systemic issues that led BSA to admit women— are the issue. If you always are told that everything you don’t like isn’t fair to you because of “the girls” then yeah, her son is going to grow up a self-pitying misogynist and it will be her fault.

I'm the mom you're calling a misogynist. It's not girl-hating to note that boys and girls behave differently in co-ed vs single-sex groups. There's a lot about manhood that can only be learned through positive male role models. If you think women can come in and show them how it should be done or how it should be done better, no wonder the men know they can never meet women's standards.

For the record, I went to all-girls schools for both high school and college and it was a gift to be able to grow physically, emotionally and intellectually without the presence of the opposite sex. Boys deserve to have those spaces too but they've all been taken away b/c if girls aren't allowed, then it must be patriarchal.

It is girl hating to say the girls have “changed the vibe” and blame them for the boys not continuing in boyscouts. That’s either an organizational problem if BSA isn’t equipped to have good groups, or it’s a problem with the boys lacking grit and commitment, but blaming it on the presence of girls is just boring, run of the mill, misogyny. And it’s a horrid example for your son to teach him his failings should be blamed on girls out-performing him.

I literally said right after that that boys coming into my daughter's girl scout group would change their vibe, too. I must just be a misanthrope who hates all of humanity.

Boys won’t be invited into Girl Scouts because the systemic abuses the BSA carried out against children did not occur in Girl Scouts. You are blaming the girls for the faults of the organization while complaining that the organization no longer holds the interest of boys past fourth grade. Where is BSA, and your own, responsibility here? Or is it just those pesky girls?