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Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

why do you need to supplement?

I’m going to assume you are new to the conversation but if you read the quoted messages, there would be a need to supplement if your kids are in a poorly performing school district where the teacher’s time is spent dealing with disruptive kids rather than teaching.

I’m sure the previous PP is doing an amazing job supplementing their kids at home, teaching them good values & responsibility, ensuring their immediate peer group is curated to have friends with a success minded outlook. But the reality is that most public schools are not a “reasonable” environment anymore. There was a thread posted a few days ago about a middle school girl in MCPS frightened to go to school due to violent, swearing, screaming students around her. It’s just not reasonable to force your kid into that situation, even if you help supplement at home and teach them good values at home. (Not blaming the parents in that thread, it’s clear they’re trying their best).
Ergo, a reasonable income for 4 needs to include a neighborhood with solid public schools, or budget for private. The latter is more expensive, so we have the former.

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Anonymous wrote:Define “around here” - DMV suburbs inside the beltway? Outside the beltway? In DC specifically? What area (Falls Church, McLean, Bethesda, Silver Spring?)

I would say you can “scrape by” on 150k, and be comfortable (but still feel middle class and worry about money) at 300k. To not feel middle class, 600k+.

Anyone who feels middle close on an HHI >$400k either has a spending problem or a very warped sense of middle class. Middle class is not private school, luxury cars, and regular international vacations.

400-600k is not those things, either. A decent private in this area for two kids is ~80k in after tax dollars. If you're doing that on 400k you're absolutely stressed about money. Add in international travel and a couple of BMWs and you have a real problem.

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Anonymous wrote:Also, the median household income in DC is closer to 90K. So people saying they can't get by on 200K are big old whiners.

Most people do it.

What they mean is: I can't live in a house in Bethesda that looks like the one I grew up in on a household income of 150K. Which is true. But no one is entitled to live in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country on an upper middle class salary. Living in a neighborhood "with good schools" (quotes because we all know that good schools can be found in many neighborhoods) is a luxury good. Not an entitlement.

+1. You want high performing schools, you need to pay for it. Middle class = middle performing public schools, or pay for Catholic.

See, I would disagree with this. If you are providing a "reasonable" upbringing to your kids, they have to be in decent or good public schools. With the decline of public schools today, most public schools are a mess of disruptive and violent children, worn down teachers etc. it’s not reasonable to force your kids into that environment. I’m not saying every kid needs to go to McLean High or Walt Whitman High or Thomas Jefferson. Places like Quince Orchard High, Sherwood High, Robinson Secondary, Washington Liberty High are fine. They’re OK. But you cannot get into those areas in a SFH with a 2k mortgage right now. Houses there sell for 600k minimum. For a reasonable amount of square footage and 4 beds, try 750k+.

20906 schools really aren’t acceptable if you’re aiming to provide your family with a good and reasonable life.

Funny. I would say the opposite. It is precisely BECAUSE I am providing a good upbringing to my kids that I don't freak out over being in the "right" school district. I trust in my parenting and values. Now if I were less involved or my kids were having a bad upbringing, then maybe it would be more important to enroll them in the "right" schools to get things they weren't getting at home or because they didn't have the positive home influence to negate negative things at school. But why would families providing their kids with a good and reasonable life need schools to do that?

The reality is that children spend a lot of time at school and around peers. The school definitely matters. Involved parents and good schools are needed. It isn't all or nothing.

Former teacher here, and I agree there needs to be a balance. My kids attend a diverse school, which we love (MCPS Focus school). But there are other MCPS schools with significant challenges. More time on classroom management means less teaching, which adds up over time.

But as a PP pointed out, if you're providing your kids with a good upbringing, that shouldn't be a problem. As a former teacher you should be able to supplement if needed.

Lololol! Most middle class people don’t hVe the time to supplement. I’m a nurse and getting a home cooked meal on the table is a significant accomplishment. As best a school district we can afford is a priority. Supplementing at home is a luxury only afforded to people who have an abundance of time. Any idea what it’s like to work a 12hr shift on your feet in a hospital setting?

But nurses only work 3 days, right? You have a lot of days off.

Anonymous wrote:It’s always housing. When people in the DC area make >$200k and complain, it’s always because they have high housing costs to live in a very expensive neighborhood. A lot of times it’s to get into specific public schools, so they spend as much as private school but it’s in their mortgage. Which makes sense, but that’s why they feel stressed. If they were willing, there is always much cheaper housing nearby. They just consider it to be unacceptable because of public school zoning or crime.

Anonymous wrote:DCUM never fails to remind me how out of touch the DMV can be.

We make a combined HHI of $290k before taxes and live in Arlington. We contribute to savings, retirement and college every month and go on domestic vacations. We have enough to go out to eat and buy the things we need, as well as some things we want. Our kids play sports.

We drive a 12 year old car and our kitchen could use a renovation but we would rather put our money towards savings or experiences.

Sure, we have to stick to a loose budget and we don't buy designer clothes, but otherwise, I feel like we can hang in this area!

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Anonymous wrote:TOTALLY depends on when/if you bought a house and student loans and number of children and where you live.

If you bought a house in 2012, have no student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work from home, you can live in Clarksburg or Manassas and have a nice life on $150K, maybe less. (And don't give me $#&^ about "bUt ThEn YoU HaVe To LiVe iN....." because that is rude and elitist.)

If you have yet to purchase a home, have student loans, two pre-schoolers, and work in downtown DC, you are going to want to make $300 to feel like you aren't treading water most months. Maybe more.

I think $300k is still very high... "reasonable" is subjective, though. I could reasonably stay at a Super 8 while others would scoff and say that's totally unreasonable. I don't have tons of money, but I prioritize what is important to me and I am never stressed about money.

- $250k, own townhouse close in, work downtown, full pay for private school (which is as much as two daycares), paid off loans, still have plenty for domestic travel and dining out

It is high but check this out:

In 2023, a 300K salary will take home 212K. That's 17K a month

Monthly:
$5-6,000 housing (including tax, insurance, repairs)
$1,500 student loans
$3,500 daycare
$2,000 on food and household items, including restaurants (this isn't a lot of takeout or restaurants)
$500 on car payment and insurance and any transit like Uber or Metro
$750 on utilities and tv etc...
Reasonably for two working professionals, $1,500 on miscellaneous (kids need shoes, new brakes for the car, Christmas tree, new shirt for party, vet visit, etc..)
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That leaves $2,500 - $3,500 for savings (which this family should be direct depositing), travel, miscellaneous, and BIG emergencies like a new roof or a new furnace or unexpected medical expenses.

It's a comfy middle class life but not without stress.

You can trade off by living far out or renting an apartment or choosing a less-than house or a less-than school district. But that's also not without stress.

Having a $3,000 mortgage or no childcare expenses or no students loans are all A HUGE GAME CHANGER.

Anonymous wrote:As usual, many on DCUM have no perspective. We are in Arlington & are quite comfortable on $175K with two kids. No debt, can afford kids activities, travel, investments, etc. Save money each month.

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Anonymous wrote:Define “around here” - DMV suburbs inside the beltway? Outside the beltway? In DC specifically? What area (Falls Church, McLean, Bethesda, Silver Spring?)

I would say you can “scrape by” on 150k, and be comfortable (but still feel middle class and worry about money) at 300k. To not feel middle class, 600k+.

Anyone who feels middle close on an HHI >$400k either has a spending problem or a very warped sense of middle class. Middle class is not private school, luxury cars, and regular international vacations.

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously much of this is a matter of perspective. We are a family of 3 living in DC on about 230k and I feel very wealthy. No we don't buy luxury cars or do private schools, but those aren't things we want. We do multiple international trips a year and life feels very comfortable. I also grew up with a single mom who worked in retail her whole life, so I have a basis for comparison.

Genuinely curious about how you do this: each international trip for a family of four can easily cost 10k above. Several will be 30k? Are you not saving for retirement ?

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Anonymous wrote:Obviously much of this is a matter of perspective. We are a family of 3 living in DC on about 230k and I feel very wealthy. No we don't buy luxury cars or do private schools, but those aren't things we want. We do multiple international trips a year and life feels very comfortable. I also grew up with a single mom who worked in retail her whole life, so I have a basis for comparison.

Genuinely curious about how you do this: each international trip for a family of four can easily cost 10k above. Several will be 30k? Are you not saving for retirement ?

Not all international trips cost that much. Ours, for a family of four, usually cost 6K or less.
If you're frugal in other areas of your life, you'll find ways to be frugal when traveling internationally too.

I call total and complete BS unless your idea is international is a drive to Montreal.

Since we are discussing “families” we all have to travel peak season because our kids are in school. We are headed to Germany this Christmas and got an incredible deal on flights for $800/each. Under your claims for our 8 night stay that would leave us with a $350 budget a day for hotel, food, and transportation. Even if we found an Airbnb for 200/nt(including the crazy taxes) you are not feeding, transporting, and and touring the area for the remaining $150/day.

Don't know what to tell you, but our family did it. We don't go for 8 days. We go for 5-6, so that cuts the price down a lot. We don't eat out. If you stay in one airBNB for a week, transportation costs are minimal.

We've done trips to Mexico, the Algarve in Portugal, Paris and London this way. If you want to think I'm lying, go for it. I'm not. I used to be a professional tour guide so I may just be better at traveling frugallly than you?

PP please share tips about traveling as a family of four, especially on how to find accommodation that is comfortably enough for 4 under budget. We recently went to London, and couldn’t find anything below £500 per night for us. It’s very tight room for four of us still.