Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:34
Subject: Re:What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:As populations and wealth continue to grow outside the US and American universities remain the gold standard, I'd expect there to continue to be far more international competition in the future too (more specifically from Asia, primarily China and India). This will further impact how classes might look geographically and racially.
I worry that this continuing trend might make it even tougher for some in the US too.
Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:33
Subject: Re:What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
The SAT might be a decent predictor of college grade success (the College Board has found it is). But is academic success grade wise over the time a student is at a college really the ultimate goal any school has when admitting someone? They are looking for people to impact discussions, lead student groups, put a ball in basket, curate an art show, and do countless other things beyond getting B+s versus A-s. They are also looking for students they think can impact society and their alumni community in the future. Even law school admissions is about more than LSAT score + GPA now. College admissions has been more complex for decades. Top SAT score + top GPA hasn't automatically equaled best applicant.
Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:20
Subject: Re:What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
As populations and wealth continue to grow outside the US and American universities remain the gold standard, I'd expect there to continue to be far more international competition in the future too (more specifically from Asia, primarily China and India). This will further impact how classes might look geographically and racially.
Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:12
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
How about we stop issuing student visas so more spots at American universities can be filled by Americans?
Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:11
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
I think they're going to add zip code into the equation. In America your zipcode is pretty much your destiny.
Poor white children live in better neighborhoods than middle class black kids. That alone speaks volumes.
Trust... affirmativeaction will go away but still exist lol
Lol. I’m guessing you’ve never been to Appalachia? Standardized test scores have historically been the best way for poor kids to distinguish themselves. The analysis that the UC system did before axing SAT requirements said that it was the single best predictor of college success, especially for poor and minority students. Standardized testing is being eliminated precisely because it works, and colleges can’t use objective measures and still balance the demographics they way they want.
Poor white kids in Appalachia taking the SAT en masse?
Really?
Don't think so.
Test optional will help them too.
The SAT is a racket with higher scores driven by household income.
The variability within HHI deciles is vastly greater than the variability between HHI deciles. In fact, when you add in parental educational level, HHI no longer predicts test scores. And yes, poor white kids in Appalachia who want to go to college take the SAT/ACT.
YES THIS. It's the point that's always ignored by these "SAT is just HHI" posters, here and in the public discourse as well
Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:08
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
I think they're going to add zip code into the equation. In America your zipcode is pretty much your destiny.
Poor white children live in better neighborhoods than middle class black kids. That alone speaks volumes.
Trust... affirmativeaction will go away but still exist lol
I live in Silicon Valley and we have low income housing smack in the middle of some of the most affluent zip codes of the country
Very true. There is even a trailer park sandwiched between the Google campus and Microsoft buildings.
Anonymous
10/12/2022 00:06
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
There's poor poor folks living in most rich zipcodes here. I don't think zipcodes are helpful much.
Anonymous
10/11/2022 23:58
Subject: Re:What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Supreme Court should get rid of AA and then eventually legacies will go away too as it is difficult to defend. Colleges will continue to not require standardized testing to enable them a bit of leeway in getting less qualified VIP kids into their uni's but overall Asian percentages admitted will rise, others will fall. In time, this will force more rigor (and less excuses) in kids that want to attend top unis.
Or the Ivys will become another MIT/Caltech type of uni for nerdy kids and white kids will have their own colleges essentially
Anonymous
10/11/2022 23:54
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
I think they're going to add zip code into the equation. In America your zipcode is pretty much your destiny.
Poor white children live in better neighborhoods than middle class black kids. That alone speaks volumes.
Trust... affirmativeaction will go away but still exist lol
I live in Silicon Valley and we have low income housing smack in the middle of some of the most affluent zip codes of the country
Anonymous
10/11/2022 23:50
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I work at a R1 public university and good friends with two AOs at an ivy and one T25. The shared outlook for this small sample is a continuation of test optional and increased emphasis on first gen students to meet institutional goals. I don’t think our institutions our outliers.
What about low income?
First gen usually acts as a proxy for low income. Obviously, that is not always the case but there is a correlation--at least the data I've seen at conferences/meetings on student success/admissions. The problem is that most private colleges, including the elite colleges with billion-plus endowments, must balance full pay, heavily discounted (merit), and/or students that need financial aid. Consequently, there isn't much economic diversity in the top 30 colleges and a higher concentration of low-income students in community colleges/state schools. Maybe the SC decision may shift this dynamic and encourage elite schools to consider low income status in admissions.
Sorry I didn’t specify - what about low income who are NOT URM or first gen.
Anonymous
10/11/2022 23:44
Subject: Re:What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Just like it does for CA publics. So many easy workarounds.
Anonymous
10/11/2022 23:38
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
I think they're going to add zip code into the equation. In America your zipcode is pretty much your destiny.
Poor white children live in better neighborhoods than middle class black kids. That alone speaks volumes.
Trust... affirmativeaction will go away but still exist lol
Lol. I’m guessing you’ve never been to Appalachia? Standardized test scores have historically been the best way for poor kids to distinguish themselves. The analysis that the UC system did before axing SAT requirements said that it was the single best predictor of college success, especially for poor and minority students. Standardized testing is being eliminated precisely because it works, and colleges can’t use objective measures and still balance the demographics they way they want.
Poor white kids in Appalachia taking the SAT en masse?
Really?
Don't think so.
Test optional will help them too.
The SAT is a racket with higher scores driven by household income.
The variability within HHI deciles is vastly greater than the variability between HHI deciles. In fact, when you add in parental educational level, HHI no longer predicts test scores. And yes, poor white kids in Appalachia who want to go to college take the SAT/ACT.
Anonymous
10/11/2022 22:17
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
I think they're going to add zip code into the equation. In America your zipcode is pretty much your destiny.
Poor white children live in better neighborhoods than middle class black kids. That alone speaks volumes.
Trust... affirmativeaction will go away but still exist lol
Lol. I’m guessing you’ve never been to Appalachia? Standardized test scores have historically been the best way for poor kids to distinguish themselves. The analysis that the UC system did before axing SAT requirements said that it was the single best predictor of college success, especially for poor and minority students. Standardized testing is being eliminated precisely because it works, and colleges can’t use objective measures and still balance the demographics they way they want.[/quote
Poor white kids in Appalachia taking the SAT en masse?
Really?
Don't think so.
Test optional will help them too.
The SAT is a racket with higher scores driven by household income.
Anonymous
10/11/2022 21:36
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
I think they're going to add zip code into the equation. In America your zipcode is pretty much your destiny.
Poor white children live in better neighborhoods than middle class black kids. That alone speaks volumes.
Trust... affirmativeaction will go away but still exist lol
Lol. I’m guessing you’ve never been to Appalachia? Standardized test scores have historically been the best way for poor kids to distinguish themselves. The analysis that the UC system did before axing SAT requirements said that it was the single best predictor of college success, especially for poor and minority students. Standardized testing is being eliminated precisely because it works, and colleges can’t use objective measures and still balance the demographics they way they want.
Anonymous
10/11/2022 21:23
Subject: What the admissions looks like after Supreme Court band affirmative action?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very likely SCOTUS will ban affirmative action in late June 2023 decision.
Once that happens -affirmative action will immediately be banned as a factor.
So what happens then for HS classes of 2024 onward? Will private colleges voluntarily ban legacy preference? I have heard a number of Ivies are discussing this to have ready to announce.
Will more public schools offer the Texas model of guaranteed admit for top 10% of each high school in the state?
Would love a sober discussion of this here....
While SCOTUS may ban affirmative action and/or the use of race in college admissions, it will not ban using first generation and lower income backgrounds as factors. And since a disproportionate share of URMs are either first generation and/or lower income, there may not be that big of an impact. Plus, colleges can always consider how an applicant has overcome adversity as expressed in a personal essay (e.g., overcame discrimination).
Nope, by headcount, there are many, many more poor whites than poor URMs. I think it's a fallacy of people who live in liberal urban areas on the coasts that the poor people are overwhelmingly black. Rural poverty actually looks very different.
NP: Yes, numerically, the majority of first gens are white. However, the majority of first gen applicants to the top 100 schools are URM or Asian American. Rural first gen white students apply to regional public universities / community colleges. There is also greater skepticism regarding elite universities as they are more likely to be conservative. URMs in urban areas are more likely to be exposed to programs like Questbridge and exposed to progressive messages emphasizing education as a means of social mobility.
PP: as someone who's been poor (and white), this is also because until a very recent past, colleges just didn't give a damn about this population. There were scholarships and outreach programs for URMs, but nothing much for others. Now there is a big emphasis on first gen, and I expect the poor white kids will follow the money; they are not stupid.
But it’s not about being stupid or not. The skepticism about the value of a college degree has significantly increased amongst white students, especially low income males. Or else elite colleges culturally change and become less left leaning, the demographic composition of first gen students to top 100 schools will not change. I do think there will be an increase in first gen white girls and Asian American students.
Yep.
COlleges are actually now using affirmative action for white boys and boys of all races.