Anonymous
Post 08/06/2022 09:58     Subject: Re:Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
I don’t really see how it’s a lot less work once the kids are in school. Yes. It’s less work during the day while they are in school, but mornings and evenings are often busier and kids get up earlier and stay up later. Toddlers sleep about 90 hours/week. Elementary schoolers sleep about 60 hours/week and go to school 30 hours/week. It looks to me like about the same amount of time doing childcare.

It’s not like these are couples where the dad is home by 5pm every day and has every weekend off. For most SAHMs, the time that the kids are in school is their only time to exercise, read, relax, and socialize. People make fun of SAHMs for going out to lunch or playing tennis during the school day, but that’s like making fun of single people for going to happy hours. This is the time they have to socialize.

And no, neither childfree people nor SAHPs are working as hard as a single mom of three who has no time to socialize.
Anonymous
Post 08/06/2022 08:16     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:Why is it outdated to look down on lazy people? Men or women. Being a stay at home parent is a lot of work. Once kids go to school, it's really not.


Because working hard is not good.

It’s actually stupid to “work hard” as a SAHP too. Get help, make friends and do play dates, build a community around you… many hands make for light work.

Working “hard” is not a quality to revere.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 22:45     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I know only one SAHD and he’s genuinely a fantastic, involved, devoted father. His son is his whole world, they have little adventures, he takes great care of him. By any measure he is a wonderful parent.

And yet, on “make sure to register for gymnastics at exactly 9am” day, it’s his wife who has her act together to register— his wife the surgeon.

Who also buys their sons clothes. Who also keeps on top of his dermatological condition (though as a doctor perhaps that’s expected) who also buys the birthday gifts and organizes the weekend play dates.

I know of no SAHM whose spouse does the above. And so the reason they are judged harshly, I imagine, is because they’re just doing less.


Ok but the examples you gave don’t suggest he’s doing less at all. Registering for camp? Buying clothing? That doesn’t happen daily or even monthly. Maybe the mom does weekend play dates while the SAHD does other stuff (wouldn’t a SAHM want some kid-free time on a weekend?). Being a SAHP doesn’t mean you do 100% of the kid and house stuff and the working parent does zero. The men I know who have SAH wives are still involved with their families and do things around the house, maybe just not your specific examples.


Not camp— rec activities. That’s quarterly. Our children are toddlers so clothes shopping is pretty ongoing. And she does all of this *while also being a practicing surgeon*. None of her male colleagues have these additional responsibilities if their wives stay home.

And if you read the threads here it is absolutely the position of many that a SAHM does all the kid stuff and that is the point.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 22:37     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:I know only one SAHD and he’s genuinely a fantastic, involved, devoted father. His son is his whole world, they have little adventures, he takes great care of him. By any measure he is a wonderful parent.

And yet, on “make sure to register for gymnastics at exactly 9am” day, it’s his wife who has her act together to register— his wife the surgeon.

Who also buys their sons clothes. Who also keeps on top of his dermatological condition (though as a doctor perhaps that’s expected) who also buys the birthday gifts and organizes the weekend play dates.

I know of no SAHM whose spouse does the above. And so the reason they are judged harshly, I imagine, is because they’re just doing less.


I know men who do this stuff. Just not a lot of them. There will always be men who can do whatever some other human can do minus the basic biological differences. But the average man does a lot less in traditional roles for women.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 21:40     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:I know only one SAHD and he’s genuinely a fantastic, involved, devoted father. His son is his whole world, they have little adventures, he takes great care of him. By any measure he is a wonderful parent.

And yet, on “make sure to register for gymnastics at exactly 9am” day, it’s his wife who has her act together to register— his wife the surgeon.

Who also buys their sons clothes. Who also keeps on top of his dermatological condition (though as a doctor perhaps that’s expected) who also buys the birthday gifts and organizes the weekend play dates.

I know of no SAHM whose spouse does the above. And so the reason they are judged harshly, I imagine, is because they’re just doing less.


Ok but the examples you gave don’t suggest he’s doing less at all. Registering for camp? Buying clothing? That doesn’t happen daily or even monthly. Maybe the mom does weekend play dates while the SAHD does other stuff (wouldn’t a SAHM want some kid-free time on a weekend?). Being a SAHP doesn’t mean you do 100% of the kid and house stuff and the working parent does zero. The men I know who have SAH wives are still involved with their families and do things around the house, maybe just not your specific examples.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 20:23     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
I know only one SAHD and he’s genuinely a fantastic, involved, devoted father. His son is his whole world, they have little adventures, he takes great care of him. By any measure he is a wonderful parent.

And yet, on “make sure to register for gymnastics at exactly 9am” day, it’s his wife who has her act together to register— his wife the surgeon.

Who also buys their sons clothes. Who also keeps on top of his dermatological condition (though as a doctor perhaps that’s expected) who also buys the birthday gifts and organizes the weekend play dates.

I know of no SAHM whose spouse does the above. And so the reason they are judged harshly, I imagine, is because they’re just doing less.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 19:12     Subject: Re:Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Man here - some of this is because, in general, women who stay home do a lot of the little unpaid tasks that add up to a lot. My SAHM DW to an 11 and 14 year old does almost all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, appointments, homeroom mom, etc. etc. that adds up to probably something like a 6 hour shift. She has it easier than I do now at my biglaw job but when the kids were little, her days were more of a slog than mine.

But if she weren't doing all of those things, I would judge her as lazy.

Also, a lot of it is biology. I have never seen this situation work in reverse (biglaw woman partner with SAH DH). I think men take pride in providing for their families, and women get resentful if their DH isn't working. I think female attraction over the long term is hard enough and they lose attraction if their man isn't working outside the home. "lack of ambition" or how ever you want to phrase it. I am not saying this is fair but it seems very consistent


Don’t disagree with this but as a working mom just wanted to chime in that I also do all the things you describe your wife do and same number of kids. Would not say is a 6 hour shift


I have a housekeeper that does all of the cooking, cleaning, errand running, laundry, grocery shopping, and home maintenance stuff. She works 8am-1pm five days a week. She seems pretty busy.



ohhhhh! You’re right - all working moms without a housekeeper are wrong. It’s truly not possible to take care of your family and work an 8-9 hour shift. Ty for enlightening us all. Side note - instacart! Wonderful invention.


No. I’m just saying that if you add it up, between you and your husband, you are probably spending 20-30 hours a week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, errands, yardwork, and home maintenance. You can do that and still work 8 hours a day.


We are absolutely not doing 20-30 hours a week of these things. Unless you have an estate and five kids


I think that most married couples with kids are spending 20-30 hours/week on cooking, cleaning, laundry, home maintenance, and yardwork (between themselves, their spouse, and any hired help). I can’t think of anyone I know who is spending much less time than that.
I do know a lot if people who are bad at math though. I get it. Multiplying by 7 is hard.


3 hours a day? Maybe if you count procrastinating


Yes. Maybe each member of the couple spends 45 minutes a day during the week (she makes dinner, and he cleans up/takes out the trash and tidies up…they Botha spend 15 minutes getting breakfast on the table, packing lunches, and cleaning up in the morning).
Then they hire out housekeeping 4 hours a week.
On the weekends, they still do this daily meal prep, plus each spends 3 hours on their respective tasks. (Maybe she does the laundry and grocery shopping, while he mows the lawn and cleans out the garage).
That’s 20 hours/week. Does that really seem insane to you?


At this point you are just describing being alive - not what a sahm might do during the day. Unless it’s a marriage where one person outsources literally every single life task including on weekends to a single party which is ridic


I’m pretty sure that making breakfast, packing lunches, making dinner, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, running errands, taking care of the yard, cleaning the garage … IS what SAHM’s of elementary school kids do during the day.

If this stuff is just “life” and not housework, then what DO you consider housework?


Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 17:56     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:Because women blame men for everything wrong in the world.


Hmm. Rape, war, homicide, abandonment of children, pedophilia, domestic violence. Try looking up which gender dominates those activities.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 17:19     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I judge women who support deadbeat DHs just as harshly. I'm talking about men with kids who are already in school, not SAHD. They are enablers and keeping a man in a cage he can never get out of, so they don't have to worry about losing him. A man who spends 20 years at home has zero chance of landing a job if he wanted to go back to work. A woman has more of a chance. Also he is not attractive to other women, at all. Like he's ever going to find some other woman to support him while he does nothing.

Those wives are enablers.


Unbelievable! So even when the man is LAZY it is the women's fault??? NO, the women is not an enabler. There is no one stopping said man to get off his butt and get ANY JOB. there is no cage. What would you have the woman do? Not work and the kids suffer? Maybe she should divorce but,that costs money!

So many women haters!! Give me a freaking break, pp.


Why would a lazy person get off his butt and get ANY JOB when his wife is letting him live for free, doing nothing? Hard to find a wife like that.....


Why blame the working person then?


Because without her consent, he wouldn't be wasting his life doing nothing. It's enabling, pure and simple.


You sound like a troll. Are men enabling their SAH wives then? Are SAHMs "wasting their lives doing nothing?"

You seem to have a very warped view of how relationships work.


I don't know any women who stayed at home once their kids were school age or out of the house. Maybe my mother's generation but not now. Does that still happen?


Of course that still happens! I am not old enough to have friends with kids who are out of the house, but all of my friends who SAH have kids ranging from elementary age to early high school. I had one who went back part time when her youngest was in 2nd grade.

A friend just went back to work after the kids were born. The youngest was 14 or 15, but she also wfh. That helps a lot.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 17:14     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I judge women who support deadbeat DHs just as harshly. I'm talking about men with kids who are already in school, not SAHD. They are enablers and keeping a man in a cage he can never get out of, so they don't have to worry about losing him. A man who spends 20 years at home has zero chance of landing a job if he wanted to go back to work. A woman has more of a chance. Also he is not attractive to other women, at all. Like he's ever going to find some other woman to support him while he does nothing.

Those wives are enablers.


Unbelievable! So even when the man is LAZY it is the women's fault??? NO, the women is not an enabler. There is no one stopping said man to get off his butt and get ANY JOB. there is no cage. What would you have the woman do? Not work and the kids suffer? Maybe she should divorce but,that costs money!

So many women haters!! Give me a freaking break, pp.


Why would a lazy person get off his butt and get ANY JOB when his wife is letting him live for free, doing nothing? Hard to find a wife like that.....


Why blame the working person then?


Because without her consent, he wouldn't be wasting his life doing nothing. It's enabling, pure and simple.


You sound like a troll. Are men enabling their SAH wives then? Are SAHMs "wasting their lives doing nothing?"

You seem to have a very warped view of how relationships work.


I don't know any women who stayed at home once their kids were school age or out of the house. Maybe my mother's generation but not now. Does that still happen?


Of course that still happens! I am not old enough to have friends with kids who are out of the house, but all of my friends who SAH have kids ranging from elementary age to early high school. I had one who went back part time when her youngest was in 2nd grade.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 15:54     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I judge women who support deadbeat DHs just as harshly. I'm talking about men with kids who are already in school, not SAHD. They are enablers and keeping a man in a cage he can never get out of, so they don't have to worry about losing him. A man who spends 20 years at home has zero chance of landing a job if he wanted to go back to work. A woman has more of a chance. Also he is not attractive to other women, at all. Like he's ever going to find some other woman to support him while he does nothing.

Those wives are enablers.


Unbelievable! So even when the man is LAZY it is the women's fault??? NO, the women is not an enabler. There is no one stopping said man to get off his butt and get ANY JOB. there is no cage. What would you have the woman do? Not work and the kids suffer? Maybe she should divorce but,that costs money!

So many women haters!! Give me a freaking break, pp.


Why would a lazy person get off his butt and get ANY JOB when his wife is letting him live for free, doing nothing? Hard to find a wife like that.....


Why blame the working person then?


Because without her consent, he wouldn't be wasting his life doing nothing. It's enabling, pure and simple.


You sound like a troll. Are men enabling their SAH wives then? Are SAHMs "wasting their lives doing nothing?"

You seem to have a very warped view of how relationships work.


I don't know any women who stayed at home once their kids were school age or out of the house. Maybe my mother's generation but not now. Does that still happen?


Yes. They are fairly busy or the family very succesesful. Or hidden problems I don't know of. Everything picture perfect.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 15:32     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I judge women who support deadbeat DHs just as harshly. I'm talking about men with kids who are already in school, not SAHD. They are enablers and keeping a man in a cage he can never get out of, so they don't have to worry about losing him. A man who spends 20 years at home has zero chance of landing a job if he wanted to go back to work. A woman has more of a chance. Also he is not attractive to other women, at all. Like he's ever going to find some other woman to support him while he does nothing.

Those wives are enablers.


Unbelievable! So even when the man is LAZY it is the women's fault??? NO, the women is not an enabler. There is no one stopping said man to get off his butt and get ANY JOB. there is no cage. What would you have the woman do? Not work and the kids suffer? Maybe she should divorce but,that costs money!

So many women haters!! Give me a freaking break, pp.


Why would a lazy person get off his butt and get ANY JOB when his wife is letting him live for free, doing nothing? Hard to find a wife like that.....


Why blame the working person then?


Because without her consent, he wouldn't be wasting his life doing nothing. It's enabling, pure and simple.


You sound like a troll. Are men enabling their SAH wives then? Are SAHMs "wasting their lives doing nothing?"

You seem to have a very warped view of how relationships work.


I don't know any women who stayed at home once their kids were school age or out of the house. Maybe my mother's generation but not now. Does that still happen?
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 15:28     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In my 20s I had a bf who desperately wanted to get married and be a SAHD. Not because he loved kids - he didn’t even really want them- but because he hated working. He quit his job shortly after we moved in together and for 2 years I took care of him (mom had taken care of him prior to me).

Most SAHDs I’ve known had similar stories. Some are great, but most are underwhelming. I remember going to the toddler music and tumbling classes, all moms would interact with their kids while dads sat in the corner playing on their phone. I judge them pretty harshly.


Lol there are plenty of SAHMs who do the same thing. Let’s just stop thinking every SAHM is turning down an equity partnership or CEO position to be a SAHM.


There is a large portion of SAHM who are unemployable.


Being a mom is a job. I don't care if someone works out of the house. They do two jobs then. It's not all leisure.


Just like being a dad is a job. What is your point?


Well in the past those two things had different levels of responsibility.
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 15:04     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:Because women blame men for everything wrong in the world.


Here's a little snippet of info from the Wikipedia article on Sex Differences in Crime, it might help you understand why what you said might actually be factual and we haven't even gotten into causes of war:

2011 arrest data from the FBI:

Males constituted 98.9% of those arrested for forcible rape
Males constituted 87.9% of those arrested for robbery
Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary
Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson
Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism
Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft
Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children
Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault
Males constituted 58.7% of those arrested for fraud
Males constituted 57.3% of those arrested for larceny-theft
Males constituted 51.3% of those arrested for embezzlement
Anonymous
Post 08/05/2022 14:50     Subject: Why do we judge men who don’t work more harshly than women?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In my 20s I had a bf who desperately wanted to get married and be a SAHD. Not because he loved kids - he didn’t even really want them- but because he hated working. He quit his job shortly after we moved in together and for 2 years I took care of him (mom had taken care of him prior to me).

Most SAHDs I’ve known had similar stories. Some are great, but most are underwhelming. I remember going to the toddler music and tumbling classes, all moms would interact with their kids while dads sat in the corner playing on their phone. I judge them pretty harshly.


Lol there are plenty of SAHMs who do the same thing. Let’s just stop thinking every SAHM is turning down an equity partnership or CEO position to be a SAHM.


There is a large portion of SAHM who are unemployable.


Being a mom is a job. I don't care if someone works out of the house. They do two jobs then. It's not all leisure.


Just like being a dad is a job. What is your point?