Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

What this poster really means is that they're a good alternative for kids who don't have to smarts to get into top ranked private colleges but have parents with money who think their kids are too special for state schools.

What the PP is unwilling to recognize is that not all top-ranked private colleges provide merit aid. I know a kid in at Amherst, Harvard, and Stanford, but headed to a CTCL as the parents cannot afford four years of full-pay private tuition when there are two more right behind this kid. The parents make enough to not qualify for aid, but not enough to bank roll even one kid for those four years.

Part of what this thread reveals is the parochial nature of some parents, ones who can't contemplate a world other than their own.

I don't believe for one second that a kid got into Harvard, Stanford and Amherst but chose a CTCL school because of finances. There are plenty of schools that are MUCH better than CTCL schools that offer merit aid. Sorry, but I call BS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are "CTCL" schools?

An NYT education reporter coined the term, then wrote a book (maybe more) about them. They're mainly liberal arts colleges outside the Northeast. There are some posters on here who seem to live to hate them and accuse anyone who even mentions one of them of having veal for children. Yes, they may not be as prestigious as some of the NESCACs, but some crank out grads in certain fields who go on to top grad schools, etc. For example, Wooster is known for its physics program. They are a good alternative for students who can only afford in-state, but may better thrive in a LAC. There are some who offer generous merit packages to make that possible.

What this poster really means is that they're a good alternative for kids who don't have to smarts to get into top ranked private colleges but have parents with money who think their kids are too special for state schools.

You're so special. Must be good to be fortunate that your DC can thrive in any environment. Pray they never really need your support in an area you deem weak or insufficient because they already know not to come to you.

Oh, please.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won’t pay a lot for clothes or cars or alcohol or beauty treatments or jewelry or fine dining any of that stuff but yeah, I will pay tuition at whatever college my kid wants to go to. My kid goes to an $80k school, my pants are from Old Navy. Makes me happy. YMMV.

+1000

DOn't understand the "I'll pay for an ivy or Stanford/MIT but after that, I'm not paying $80K". If you can afford to pay, why would you not want your kid to attend the best college of THEIR choice?

And if you would need to take loans for the IVY/S/M I don't call that affording it. I'd ask, why would you take $40-50K/year just for that. Ivies are great school, but really not that much better (or even better at all) than many of the other T50 schools. For me it's more about major and fit. But I wouldn't go into debt for any school if I had other choices I could afford (but it's a mute point as I have saved and can/am sending my kids to full pay expensive schools)

Because paying 80k "after that" is just plain stupid, that's why, and most 18 year olds aren't sophisticated enough financially to realize that. So you have to step in. Why is it that folks don't think twice about denying a kid anything but a college education on the ground that the thing they want just isn't worth the money.

We had one kid get into UVA and Notre Dame. Yes, we could have afforded Notre Dame, but we can afford lots of things that we don't buy. Are we really just expected to pay double for Notre Dame just because our kid wants us to? Sorry, no.

We value education. So yes, I'd happily pay if that's where my kid wants to attend. You obviously are not required to do that. But I'd rather spend on a college education than a fancy car or vacation

Ridiculous. UVA in state is less than half of ND and the educations are very comparable. Next?

Not ridiculous at all, just in your opinion. I suspect you don't have $320K saved so ND just isn't affordable for your family so you are just stating they are "comparable".

If one is a better fit for your kid and their major and you can afford to pay, why wouldn't you?
ND vs UVA stats
10K vs 17K undergrads alone is a huge difference for many kids.
8.3:1 vs 14:1 student:faculty ratio
2.3% vs 6.5% of classes with 100+ students
7.9% vs 14.5% of classes with 50+ students

In less than 5 mins I found these key data points demonstrating key differences and ones that I'd argue make ND "a better school" More access to faculty, smaller class sizes makes for a better educational experience IMO.

So while both are great schools, ND definately has an edge.

I posted earlier that ND is a great school, but not for everyone. But I will add that in addition to all above, its biggest asset is the alumni network you have at your disposal, which is one of the best in the country. Everyone knows that. Its #13 on this list, which looks to be quite accurate based on the other schools on the list. https://www.collegeconsensus.com/rankings/best-college-alumni-networks/

The strong alumni network is not due to education, it’s due to Catholicism, just like how BYU grads help fellow Mormons. Did you happen to look further down the list ? All Catholic, until you hit UVA,a0ubliv, at 30 out of 4,000 institutions in the US. Try again

Try again. The number of Catholic universities in the top 20 is 1 (ND). The number of Catholic universities in the top 50 is 3. BYU is number 48. Nice try though.

Also UVA has produced 55 Rhodes Scholars. ND only 20. Same with the Marshall .

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]...[/quote]

Lol I’m a fan of Notre Dame but UVA has the [b]highest graduation rate of any state school in the country[/b] and rivals the very best privates (including ND) in this department. In many ways UVA is basically Notre Dame without religion. [/quote]

If you think the two are in any way comparable, you have not seen both campuses. I wonder how much the UVA graduation rate is impacted by the multimillionaire parents who refuse to pay for their child to transfer to another school? At least with respect to these kids, the term “captivity rate” is more apt. [/quote]

Not sure where you are getting your facts.

4 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 93% (highest in the country)
UVA 89%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

6 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 97% (#3 in country tied with UC Berkeley and Yale)
UVA 94%
https://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/colleges-with-the-highest-six-year-graduation-rates/665/

Hey isn't UC Berkeley a public university? I guess that theory goes out the window too (see bolded above).

And I agree, ND does have the most beautiful campus.

[/quote]
I am not sure what facts you think I did not know: I was well aware that Notre Dame’s graduation rate is the highest in the country. (Didn’t want to rub it in, mind you.) And Virginia’s is also high, which — if you can reread and find nuance, though you do not seem the nuance type — was precisely the point: where else do students have to go if they are unhappy at the UVA’s of the world? Having already gone there because of cost, the alternatives are very limited. They are essentially “in captivity.” In fact, it is a wonder that state flagships do not overwhelmingly dominate over private universities in graduation rates for that very reason. They do not, though, because of an inferior student experience. Again, Notre Dame’s student experience is in no way comparable to UVA. Get it? [/quote]

You're assuming that UVA, which has one of the wealthiest student bodies in the country, is full of kids who can't afford to go elsewhere? Ok . . . [/quote]



DP. That analogy does t work because ND has such poor diversity numbers that’s also why the graduation rate it high a… there are few URMs and first generations so ND mom needs to think more before shooting off her mouth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I won’t pay a lot for clothes or cars or alcohol or beauty treatments or jewelry or fine dining any of that stuff but yeah, I will pay tuition at whatever college my kid wants to go to. My kid goes to an $80k school, my pants are from Old Navy. Makes me happy. YMMV.

+1000

DOn't understand the "I'll pay for an ivy or Stanford/MIT but after that, I'm not paying $80K". If you can afford to pay, why would you not want your kid to attend the best college of THEIR choice?

And if you would need to take loans for the IVY/S/M I don't call that affording it. I'd ask, why would you take $40-50K/year just for that. Ivies are great school, but really not that much better (or even better at all) than many of the other T50 schools. For me it's more about major and fit. But I wouldn't go into debt for any school if I had other choices I could afford (but it's a mute point as I have saved and can/am sending my kids to full pay expensive schools)

Because paying 80k "after that" is just plain stupid, that's why, and most 18 year olds aren't sophisticated enough financially to realize that. So you have to step in. Why is it that folks don't think twice about denying a kid anything but a college education on the ground that the thing they want just isn't worth the money.

We had one kid get into UVA and Notre Dame. Yes, we could have afforded Notre Dame, but we can afford lots of things that we don't buy. Are we really just expected to pay double for Notre Dame just because our kid wants us to? Sorry, no.

We value education. So yes, I'd happily pay if that's where my kid wants to attend. You obviously are not required to do that. But I'd rather spend on a college education than a fancy car or vacation

Ridiculous. UVA in state is less than half of ND and the educations are very comparable. Next?

Not ridiculous at all, just in your opinion. I suspect you don't have $320K saved so ND just isn't affordable for your family so you are just stating they are "comparable".

If one is a better fit for your kid and their major and you can afford to pay, why wouldn't you?
ND vs UVA stats
10K vs 17K undergrads alone is a huge difference for many kids.
8.3:1 vs 14:1 student:faculty ratio
2.3% vs 6.5% of classes with 100+ students
7.9% vs 14.5% of classes with 50+ students

In less than 5 mins I found these key data points demonstrating key differences and ones that I'd argue make ND "a better school" More access to faculty, smaller class sizes makes for a better educational experience IMO.

So while both are great schools, ND definately has an edge.

I posted earlier that ND is a great school, but not for everyone. But I will add that in addition to all above, its biggest asset is the alumni network you have at your disposal, which is one of the best in the country. Everyone knows that. Its #13 on this list, which looks to be quite accurate based on the other schools on the list. https://www.collegeconsensus.com/rankings/best-college-alumni-networks/

The strong alumni network is not due to education, it’s due to Catholicism, just like how BYU grads help fellow Mormons. Did you happen to look further down the list ? All Catholic, until you hit UVA,a0ubliv, at 30 out of 4,000 institutions in the US. Try again

Anonymous wrote:If a kid has to pay $80K at HYPSM, $50K at T20 (part merit) and $0 at state flagship (full ride). I think, I'll let him pick T20 if he wants to.

My son qualified for the full ride Bannaker Key scholarship at College Park and chose Notre Dame. It was a no brainer for us. ND was his dream school. To be cheap and make him attend UMD would be close to child abuse considering our 529 had over $300K in it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I made more than enough money (just under 7 figures at my peak) to pay for any college whatsoever for each of my kids, but there was no way in hell I was going to pay for private school unless I was paying top tier. It's just not worth it.

You'll find a lot of posters on this board with money who will say that they'll happily pay for second tier schools that nobody's ever heard of -- including those silly "CTCL" schools. I think they're all nuts.

Agreed. We are able to afford the absurd costs of private universities, but no way in hell do we plan to waste our money in that way. Luckily, we live in VA where our kids will be able to choose from among our wonderful state schools.

If they get in lol.

We let our kids choose without regard to cost.

Anonymous wrote:If a kid has to pay $80K at HYPSM, $50K at T20 (part merit) and $0 at state flagship (full ride). I think, I'll let him pick T20 if he wants to.

Mine was offered/negotiated $47k for top LAC, $40k for T10 and Ivy, 32k for other Ivy, 30k for other top LAC, 10k for state flagship. Chose 32k Ivy. We had 40k/yr budgeted, so all good. We have hhi under 150k

Anonymous wrote:ND and Emory boosters must be having a cocktail party today...next time they should invite the Tulane and SLAC/CTLT boosters and get the full crowd together.

Don't forget the Northeastern boosters.

Anonymous wrote:I made more than enough money (just under 7 figures at my peak) to pay for any college whatsoever for each of my kids, but there was no way in hell I was going to pay for private school unless I was paying top tier. It's just not worth it.

You'll find a lot of posters on this board with money who will say that they'll happily pay for second tier schools that nobody's ever heard of -- including those silly "CTCL" schools. I think they're all nuts.

Agreed. We are able to afford the absurd costs of private universities, but no way in hell do we plan to waste our money in that way. Luckily, we live in VA where our kids will be able to choose from among our wonderful state schools.

If a kid has to pay $80K at HYPSM, $50K at T20 (part merit) and $0 at state flagship (full ride). I think, I'll let him pick T20 if he wants to.

[quote=Anonymous]
You're assuming that UVA, which has one of the wealthiest student bodies in the country, is full of kids who can't afford to go elsewhere? Ok . . . [/quote]

Wealthy for a state school. Full of middle class or upper middle class parents who are economically-savvy, perhaps. But there are a number of private colleges where family wealth is much greater - if you don't even notice the difference in cost, you pay for what your child prefers, right?

I don't have a dog in this UVA/Notre Dame fight and I have no personal preference, but I just want to point this out.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]...[/quote]

Lol I’m a fan of Notre Dame but UVA has the [b]highest graduation rate of any state school in the country[/b] and rivals the very best privates (including ND) in this department. In many ways UVA is basically Notre Dame without religion. [/quote]

If you think the two are in any way comparable, you have not seen both campuses. I wonder how much the UVA graduation rate is impacted by the multimillionaire parents who refuse to pay for their child to transfer to another school? At least with respect to these kids, the term “captivity rate” is more apt. [/quote]

Not sure where you are getting your facts.

4 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 93% (highest in the country)
UVA 89%
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

6 year graduation rate:
Notre Dame 97% (#3 in country tied with UC Berkeley and Yale)
UVA 94%
https://www.collegexpress.com/lists/list/colleges-with-the-highest-six-year-graduation-rates/665/

Hey isn't UC Berkeley a public university? I guess that theory goes out the window too (see bolded above).

And I agree, ND does have the most beautiful campus.

[/quote]
I am not sure what facts you think I did not know: I was well aware that Notre Dame’s graduation rate is the highest in the country. (Didn’t want to rub it in, mind you.) And Virginia’s is also high, which — if you can reread and find nuance, though you do not seem the nuance type — was precisely the point: where else do students have to go if they are unhappy at the UVA’s of the world? Having already gone there because of cost, the alternatives are very limited. They are essentially “in captivity.” In fact, it is a wonder that state flagships do not overwhelmingly dominate over private universities in graduation rates for that very reason. They do not, though, because of an inferior student experience. Again, Notre Dame’s student experience is in no way comparable to UVA. Get it? [/quote]

You're assuming that UVA, which has one of the wealthiest student bodies in the country, is full of kids who can't afford to go elsewhere? Ok . . . [/quote]

I think UVA is pretty far from the wealthiest student bodies. Those are typically private.