My sisters kids have lived with her most of their adult lives - now in their late 20s and mid 30s. The youngest finally moved out a few years ago after years of drug addiction and related criminal activity. She moved out at the end of a restraining order so nothing to be proud of. Her ~10 year old son is being raised by his grandparents. They raised the older daughter’s kid for most of the first several years because she was a hot mess too - has alcohol and drug issues and numerous DUIs. The older grandchild is still at home raised by his grandparents much of the time and at 16 is in the juvenile justice system already on serious charges. Their son is a little less of a mess except he’s going to be 30 this year, has not sustained a functional relationship for very long, dropped out after a year of community college, works for his dad doing construction and previously worked in restaurants. He’s got a band! They’ve done nothing much. His most successful year was when he lived in an off campus apartment and sold drugs to richer kids at the local colleges. He bought a nice car.

My cousin’s kids are about the same. The younger is developmentally disabled so she’s okay. The older is perpetually pissed that her younger sister came and stole all her parents attention so she seems to have failed to launch in retaliation. She’s early 30s now, was in a long term relationship with a married man not sure if that’s still a thing. She bounced around in dumb jobs for years but I think recently she finally completed coursework to be a veterinary technician so that’s at least a solid job but still not self supporting entirely.

My brother’s kids are still too young to know - if he’s anything like our father was he will demand they either go to college or get a job and pay rent and at some point get out on their own. I think it’s a tough balance these days because housing costs are insane - but if you never push your kids out of the nest, some kids won’t leave. And if they always have a soft place to land and an open line of credit at the bank of mom and dad, it can be too easy to indulge behaviors that aren’t conducive to establishing a solid work ethic and life management skills.

I have some friends whose kids seem to be launching nicely. I have others whose kids are stuck at home and struggling. I think it is naive for any parent to think that their parenting isn’t part of the equation of how their kid turned out to be a dud. My sister is one of those who lacks all insight about this - two daughters with borderline disorder and substance use disorder and she’s raising their kids because both got pregnant when teen was part of their age and both of the grandkids have issues - well duh their moms were too messed up to form a secure attachment with them so . . . I do have some sympathy for my sister, she’s been raising kids for almost 40 years straight can you imagine? She’s the kind who puts on a public face of having it all together but she’s become an alcoholic in recent years and has admitted to me feeling suicidal at times. Imagine 40 years of parenting and not one who stands on their own two feet and manages to stay out of the police log and maybe even has a career of some kind . . .

I don’t have kids. I’m sad about that but also relieved. Kids are life’s biggest crap shoot. Between my own personal life experience and my decades working in social services/criminal justice system, I have seen absolutely EVERYTHING that kids can bring. I’ve seen parents shot dead in their bed by a beloved child, parents robbed blind by beloved kids, parents driven to terrible grief by children who committed suicide or worse, homicide. Kids can bring joy but it seems to me even good ones will suck a lot of life out of you and if you have ‘bad’ kids, the grief - or the kid - can cut your life short.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My "dud" child works 10 times as hard as the average smart kid to achieve the same thing. He is twice exceptional, meaning he is gifted but also learning disordered, with a few medical diagnoses to round it all off. He has an IEP and 100% extra time. Extraordinarily slow processing speed. Various weird quirks. Lethal allergies.

He needs so much hand-holding in all matters of practical life.
Yet he has a high IQ and he's intellectually curious and decidedly academic. He knows exactly what he wants to do but has difficulty executing it.

It turns out my dud child, is not a dud. He is mentally resilient, and has learned to persist despite immense odds, starting from an accident at birth.

So he's a hero.

But people on this board will happily wave all kids with special needs into the "also-ran" category, and excoriate all families of youngsters with "invisible" special needs, because "we're coddling our kids", and we should "let them make their own mistakes", and because of us this "snowflake generation is completely incapacitated".

Once you shut out the noise of the ignorant masses, and focus on who your children really are, I don't think any of them will turn out to be duds. But you have to be observant, and compassionate, and never let them off the work ethic hook because of their needs. Know their potential, their strengths and weaknesses, and adjust expectations. Provide everything that they need to succeed. Teach them to advocate for themselves. Help them find what they're good at.

There are no duds in my family. Just variously functional people with labels like HFA or ADHD or anxiety. Some of those same people also have labels like MD and PhD, so we know that some labels are not incompatible with each other.

I think my point is: know yourself. Know your kids. Self-awareness is the greatest gift.

Beautifully said. Thank you for posting this.

I agree. Thank you for posting this. My non dud "dud" child is sending a high five to yours.

I’m this far in and I have no idea what a dud child is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My "dud" child works 10 times as hard as the average smart kid to achieve the same thing. He is twice exceptional, meaning he is gifted but also learning disordered, with a few medical diagnoses to round it all off. He has an IEP and 100% extra time. Extraordinarily slow processing speed. Various weird quirks. Lethal allergies.

He needs so much hand-holding in all matters of practical life.
Yet he has a high IQ and he's intellectually curious and decidedly academic. He knows exactly what he wants to do but has difficulty executing it.

It turns out my dud child, is not a dud. He is mentally resilient, and has learned to persist despite immense odds, starting from an accident at birth.

So he's a hero.

But people on this board will happily wave all kids with special needs into the "also-ran" category, and excoriate all families of youngsters with "invisible" special needs, because "we're coddling our kids", and we should "let them make their own mistakes", and because of us this "snowflake generation is completely incapacitated".

Once you shut out the noise of the ignorant masses, and focus on who your children really are, I don't think any of them will turn out to be duds. But you have to be observant, and compassionate, and never let them off the work ethic hook because of their needs. Know their potential, their strengths and weaknesses, and adjust expectations. Provide everything that they need to succeed. Teach them to advocate for themselves. Help them find what they're good at.

There are no duds in my family. Just variously functional people with labels like HFA or ADHD or anxiety. Some of those same people also have labels like MD and PhD, so we know that some labels are not incompatible with each other.

I think my point is: know yourself. Know your kids. Self-awareness is the greatest gift.

One of the few good posts here. Same as every thread on this forum, but this basically highlights how 90% of you are toxic, but 10% of posters, like the above, are compassionate, well adjusted, any genuinely happy and wise seeming human beings.

As an NT married to an hFa and one HFA kid, I just hope I survive and stay healthy. That will be success. And no calling grandma to bail you out in the distant future.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think it’s heredity. More than likely, when parents don’t agree on childrearing, kids take the easy way out.

It’s both

I know several 'dud' sons/failure to launch men who are now old -50's-60's. They have had spotty work history, lived at home off and on into adult hood, borrowed money from parents, drink a lolt, wreck cars, trouble with the law. None married or had kids thankfully.

The thing they have in common is that they were the golden child of the family and they each were selfish people. The parents favored them and gave excuses for them and never drew the line. The men paid the price but so did the parents.

Anonymous wrote:Most of the dud kids in this thread are boys/men. You want to know why? Most mothers (and I guess fathers, but I’ve observed it more with moms) baby the shit out of their boys. There’s almost always a different standard for their sons than their daughters, and it is usually to the son’s detriment in the end in terms of character development and grit.

It starts with those poor boys who are cruelly expected to sit still in school and never lets up.

Most of the dud kids in this thread are boys/men. You want to know why? Most mothers (and I guess fathers, but I’ve observed it more with moms) baby the shit out of their boys. There’s almost always a different standard for their sons than their daughters, and it is usually to the son’s detriment in the end in terms of character development and grit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My "dud" child works 10 times as hard as the average smart kid to achieve the same thing. He is twice exceptional, meaning he is gifted but also learning disordered, with a few medical diagnoses to round it all off. He has an IEP and 100% extra time. Extraordinarily slow processing speed. Various weird quirks. Lethal allergies.

He needs so much hand-holding in all matters of practical life.
Yet he has a high IQ and he's intellectually curious and decidedly academic. He knows exactly what he wants to do but has difficulty executing it.

It turns out my dud child, is not a dud. He is mentally resilient, and has learned to persist despite immense odds, starting from an accident at birth.

So he's a hero.

But people on this board will happily wave all kids with special needs into the "also-ran" category, and excoriate all families of youngsters with "invisible" special needs, because "we're coddling our kids", and we should "let them make their own mistakes", and because of us this "snowflake generation is completely incapacitated".

Once you shut out the noise of the ignorant masses, and focus on who your children really are, I don't think any of them will turn out to be duds. But you have to be observant, and compassionate, and never let them off the work ethic hook because of their needs. Know their potential, their strengths and weaknesses, and adjust expectations. Provide everything that they need to succeed. Teach them to advocate for themselves. Help them find what they're good at.

There are no duds in my family. Just variously functional people with labels like HFA or ADHD or anxiety. Some of those same people also have labels like MD and PhD, so we know that some labels are not incompatible with each other.

I think my point is: know yourself. Know your kids. Self-awareness is the greatest gift.

One of the few good posts here. Same as every thread on this forum, but this basically highlights how 90% of you are toxic, but 10% of posters, like the above, are compassionate, well adjusted, any genuinely happy and wise seeming human beings.

Sorry, no. This is not what this thread is about. Working ten times harder than someone else is the exact opposite of a dud. Also being an MD or a PhD is not a dud. I have no idea why that PP even responded to this thread -- to call attention to her entire family NOT having any "duds"?

Some people are duds. That's what this thread is about.

I have an adult stepbrother aged 40 with physical problems, allergies, and learning disablilites. He tries hard and is the nicest guy. He works at a grocery store.
A few years ago at the gym a older woman learned he was my stepbrother, and her daughter knew him in high school (she was a friend of step mother.) She said to me "i heard he isn't all that successful now." Wanted to strangle her. He tries so hard and is a good person. People lose sight of what is dud and what is successful.

Anonymous wrote:
My "dud" child works 10 times as hard as the average smart kid to achieve the same thing. He is twice exceptional, meaning he is gifted but also learning disordered, with a few medical diagnoses to round it all off. He has an IEP and 100% extra time. Extraordinarily slow processing speed. Various weird quirks. Lethal allergies.

He needs so much hand-holding in all matters of practical life.
Yet he has a high IQ and he's intellectually curious and decidedly academic. He knows exactly what he wants to do but has difficulty executing it.

It turns out my dud child, is not a dud. He is mentally resilient, and has learned to persist despite immense odds, starting from an accident at birth.

So he's a hero.

But people on this board will happily wave all kids with special needs into the "also-ran" category, and excoriate all families of youngsters with "invisible" special needs, because "we're coddling our kids", and we should "let them make their own mistakes", and because of us this "snowflake generation is completely incapacitated".

Once you shut out the noise of the ignorant masses, and focus on who your children really are, I don't think any of them will turn out to be duds. But you have to be observant, and compassionate, and never let them off the work ethic hook because of their needs. Know their potential, their strengths and weaknesses, and adjust expectations. Provide everything that they need to succeed. Teach them to advocate for themselves. Help them find what they're good at.

There are no duds in my family. Just variously functional people with labels like HFA or ADHD or anxiety. Some of those same people also have labels like MD and PhD, so we know that some labels are not incompatible with each other.

I think my point is: know yourself. Know your kids. Self-awareness is the greatest gift.

One of the few good posts here. Same as every thread on this forum, but this basically highlights how 90% of you are toxic, but 10% of posters, like the above, are compassionate, well adjusted, any genuinely happy and wise seeming human beings.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My "dud" child works 10 times as hard as the average smart kid to achieve the same thing. He is twice exceptional, meaning he is gifted but also learning disordered, with a few medical diagnoses to round it all off. He has an IEP and 100% extra time. Extraordinarily slow processing speed. Various weird quirks. Lethal allergies.

He needs so much hand-holding in all matters of practical life.
Yet he has a high IQ and he's intellectually curious and decidedly academic. He knows exactly what he wants to do but has difficulty executing it.

It turns out my dud child, is not a dud. He is mentally resilient, and has learned to persist despite immense odds, starting from an accident at birth.

So he's a hero.

But people on this board will happily wave all kids with special needs into the "also-ran" category, and excoriate all families of youngsters with "invisible" special needs, because "we're coddling our kids", and we should "let them make their own mistakes", and because of us this "snowflake generation is completely incapacitated".

Once you shut out the noise of the ignorant masses, and focus on who your children really are, I don't think any of them will turn out to be duds. But you have to be observant, and compassionate, and never let them off the work ethic hook because of their needs. Know their potential, their strengths and weaknesses, and adjust expectations. Provide everything that they need to succeed. Teach them to advocate for themselves. Help them find what they're good at.

There are no duds in my family. Just variously functional people with labels like HFA or ADHD or anxiety. Some of those same people also have labels like MD and PhD, so we know that some labels are not incompatible with each other.

I think my point is: know yourself. Know your kids. Self-awareness is the greatest gift.

Beautifully said. Thank you for posting this.

+1:,)

Anonymous wrote:I’m interested in the nature vs. nurture thing, particularly work ethic.

Dud XDH, his mom and two siblings all lack anything resembling a work ethic. I could tell stories, but I don’t want to out them. Suffice it to say, none of the three kids is really financially viable, although two of them hold down jobs at least. My parents and sibling are really hard working.

My DD has an amazing work ethic, attended a top ivy, has won merit scholarships to grad school, and so on. It’s hard to get DS off the sofa and at 25 he’s definitely not able to support himself.

What does DCUM say? Did I parent two kids completely differently? Is there something genetic going on?

I’ve googled the heredibility of work ethic and studies say different things.

Serious question for the PP - do you think you will eventually kick him out?

Anonymous wrote:
My "dud" child works 10 times as hard as the average smart kid to achieve the same thing. He is twice exceptional, meaning he is gifted but also learning disordered, with a few medical diagnoses to round it all off. He has an IEP and 100% extra time. Extraordinarily slow processing speed. Various weird quirks. Lethal allergies.

He needs so much hand-holding in all matters of practical life.
Yet he has a high IQ and he's intellectually curious and decidedly academic. He knows exactly what he wants to do but has difficulty executing it.

It turns out my dud child, is not a dud. He is mentally resilient, and has learned to persist despite immense odds, starting from an accident at birth.

So he's a hero.

But people on this board will happily wave all kids with special needs into the "also-ran" category, and excoriate all families of youngsters with "invisible" special needs, because "we're coddling our kids", and we should "let them make their own mistakes", and because of us this "snowflake generation is completely incapacitated".

Once you shut out the noise of the ignorant masses, and focus on who your children really are, I don't think any of them will turn out to be duds. But you have to be observant, and compassionate, and never let them off the work ethic hook because of their needs. Know their potential, their strengths and weaknesses, and adjust expectations. Provide everything that they need to succeed. Teach them to advocate for themselves. Help them find what they're good at.

There are no duds in my family. Just variously functional people with labels like HFA or ADHD or anxiety. Some of those same people also have labels like MD and PhD, so we know that some labels are not incompatible with each other.

I think my point is: know yourself. Know your kids. Self-awareness is the greatest gift.

Beautifully said. Thank you for posting this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m interested in the nature vs. nurture thing, particularly work ethic.

Dud XDH, his mom and two siblings all lack anything resembling a work ethic. I could tell stories, but I don’t want to out them. Suffice it to say, none of the three kids is really financially viable, although two of them hold down jobs at least. My parents and sibling are really hard working.

My DD has an amazing work ethic, attended a top ivy, has won merit scholarships to grad school, and so on. It’s hard to get DS off the sofa and at 25 he’s definitely not able to support himself.

What does DCUM say? Did I parent two kids completely differently? Is there something genetic going on?

I’ve googled the heredibility of work ethic and studies say different things.

Possibly genetic, but more likely he learned from his male role model (dad)

Disagree. The older I get, the more I think these things are genetic. I was a go getter and very motivated, but did not have all of life's advantages growing up. I did as well as I could given what I had, and found my way. DH, on the other had, did have all the advantages, family connections... you name it, but at his core was a dud. He has a better pedigree than I do, and was able to get opportunities from either his good pedigree, family connections, family wealth, etc. but when the rubber's hit the road and we've gotten to the point where we've had to actually produce, I can accomplished more than he can hands down. He does not appear to be a dud to the outside world because he's so propped up by his background.

Like the above poster, one of our kids is a dud, and one is a high achiever. Parented the same way. Both girls. One got my traits, one his. Personality is heritable. Hopefully his family wealth will be enough to support the one that takes after him.