Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 16:02     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Who knows if CIO leads to anxiety etc etc. It’s on a spectrum of “firm but loving” things that have been done to children for generations that we are evolving out of. Thank goodness.

Re: pediatricians. They don’t know any more than the rest of us about the neuroscience of babies. Trust them when your kid gets RSV or has torticollis. Follow their vaccine recs. Emotional health? No way.


This is so true on pediatricians. Most of the behavioral/emotional developmental advice you get from pediatricians is based not on specialized knowledge but a combination of AAP recommendations and observation, the latter of which can be very easily biased.

I am not opposed to sleep training but could not personally do it -- I am a weirdo who enjoyed nighttime feeds and I had a lot of leeway with return to work so it was not imperative for me. I remember my pediatrician asking at our 6 mo appointment if DC was STTN yet and when I said no (we were still doing one feeding at night), the doctor got all worked up about it and said we needed to sleep train and that it was "not normal" for the baby to be waking up for food at that age. It felt like she was shaming me for not sleep training and assumed the night wake ups were burdensome (they were not at that stage -- they were short and easy and had become part of my routine enough that it was doable). By 9 months, DC was STTN on his own without training, but the doctor assumed we'd sleep trained without asking and this clearly confirmed for her that she had been "right" in telling us to sleep train. We got similar advice during potty training -- just strict instructions that did not work with how we chose to approach it, and then when our kid was successfully potty trained she credited her advice that we had totally ignored.

She is otherwise a great pediatrician, and I trust her implicitly on medical issues. But for behavioral stuff we consult other sources (actual behavioral experts) and reach our own conclusions.


I’m really glad to see this comment because this has been my experience so far with my 7mo and the approach I plan to take going forward. I don’t find the wakeups burdensome and I don’t think I have the heart to sleep train, but my ped gently tried to let me know that she didn’t need to be eating at night or waking. Due to WFH and DH split paternal leave w/a part time nanny, we have a little more flexibility in meeting dc where is developmentally (but I know that’s not the case for everyone).


It's good to learn this early (that your pediatrician is a source of medical expertise, not general parental wisdom). It helps you have more confidence as a parent and make your own choices. If you are a first time parent, it can be frustrating at first because you are often looking for guidance and reassurance, and a good pediatrician won't give you either, really -- they can't tell you how to parent your kid. But once you develop other resources and start to feel more sure of yourself, it's great because there is less friction at the pediatrician's office (if there was ever any). They might personally disagree with your choices on developmental stuff, but as long as you trust them on the medical stuff, it will be a successful partnership.
Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 15:35     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Who knows if CIO leads to anxiety etc etc. It’s on a spectrum of “firm but loving” things that have been done to children for generations that we are evolving out of. Thank goodness.

Re: pediatricians. They don’t know any more than the rest of us about the neuroscience of babies. Trust them when your kid gets RSV or has torticollis. Follow their vaccine recs. Emotional health? No way.


This is so true on pediatricians. Most of the behavioral/emotional developmental advice you get from pediatricians is based not on specialized knowledge but a combination of AAP recommendations and observation, the latter of which can be very easily biased.

I am not opposed to sleep training but could not personally do it -- I am a weirdo who enjoyed nighttime feeds and I had a lot of leeway with return to work so it was not imperative for me. I remember my pediatrician asking at our 6 mo appointment if DC was STTN yet and when I said no (we were still doing one feeding at night), the doctor got all worked up about it and said we needed to sleep train and that it was "not normal" for the baby to be waking up for food at that age. It felt like she was shaming me for not sleep training and assumed the night wake ups were burdensome (they were not at that stage -- they were short and easy and had become part of my routine enough that it was doable). By 9 months, DC was STTN on his own without training, but the doctor assumed we'd sleep trained without asking and this clearly confirmed for her that she had been "right" in telling us to sleep train. We got similar advice during potty training -- just strict instructions that did not work with how we chose to approach it, and then when our kid was successfully potty trained she credited her advice that we had totally ignored.

She is otherwise a great pediatrician, and I trust her implicitly on medical issues. But for behavioral stuff we consult other sources (actual behavioral experts) and reach our own conclusions.


I’m really glad to see this comment because this has been my experience so far with my 7mo and the approach I plan to take going forward. I don’t find the wakeups burdensome and I don’t think I have the heart to sleep train, but my ped gently tried to let me know that she didn’t need to be eating at night or waking. Due to WFH and DH split paternal leave w/a part time nanny, we have a little more flexibility in meeting dc where is developmentally (but I know that’s not the case for everyone).
Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 12:23     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have known plenty of sleep deprived babies and toddlers. It impacts everything, just like in adults. They’re moody, quick to get upset, have difficulty training. People that let their kids go for their first most formative years in that state are misguided and doing their kids a disservice. I pity those kids, same as you probably pity mine.



Only those in daycare settings or home with lots of other kids. If you let a baby and toddler sleep when and how they want, they aren’t sleep deprived.


DP. This is a laughably ignorant statement.


No, it isn’t. When a baby can sleep on their own schedule they aren’t sleep deprived. A baby cannot sleep on his/her own schedule in daycare.


Since when can’t a baby sleep on their schedule in daycare? Any high quality daycare follows an infants sleep and feeding cues. They are not on a schedule.


Oof, this is not how most daycares function. It's not realistic.

My child's natural schedule as a baby was to wake at 6am, nap from 8:30-10:30, eat and play, then nap from noon-1:30 or so, then eat and play, then another 15-30 minute nap before dinner. No daycare was going to accommodate that.


What is there to "accommodate"?! It sounds like you have zero experience with daycare. At least, not any good daycares.


My daycare is more accommodating than I am in terms of sleep. Yes, they have the same naptime every day, but they will pat and soothe kids who aren't sleeping and if my DD refuses to nap they will sit with her and quietly read books. A lot nicer than I would be at home! And I'm fine with it. But just saying.
Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 12:19     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Ha I didn't click on this title for a long time because I was ready to get mad!

Honestly I do regret letting my first CIO. Looking back now I definitely should have co-slept. But letting the CIO was a much better choice for all of us than trying to keep rocking them to sleep every time they woke up. I'm happy I have come to the point where the fact that I think I could have made a more ideal decision no longer bothers me.
Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 12:08     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have known plenty of sleep deprived babies and toddlers. It impacts everything, just like in adults. They’re moody, quick to get upset, have difficulty training. People that let their kids go for their first most formative years in that state are misguided and doing their kids a disservice. I pity those kids, same as you probably pity mine.



Only those in daycare settings or home with lots of other kids. If you let a baby and toddler sleep when and how they want, they aren’t sleep deprived.


DP. This is a laughably ignorant statement.


No, it isn’t. When a baby can sleep on their own schedule they aren’t sleep deprived. A baby cannot sleep on his/her own schedule in daycare.


Since when can’t a baby sleep on their schedule in daycare? Any high quality daycare follows an infants sleep and feeding cues. They are not on a schedule.


Oof, this is not how most daycares function. It's not realistic.

My child's natural schedule as a baby was to wake at 6am, nap from 8:30-10:30, eat and play, then nap from noon-1:30 or so, then eat and play, then another 15-30 minute nap before dinner. No daycare was going to accommodate that.


What is there to "accommodate"?! It sounds like you have zero experience with daycare. At least, not any good daycares.


Yeah, that's pretty much my 6 month old's sleep schedule. At daycare. I time his dropoff right before the first nap, they follow his cues throughout the day and then he naps in the stroller as we walk home. I also don't do any kind of intense CIO because I've been blessed with naturally good sleepers but one of my friends has a 2yo who never went to daycare and needed sleep training because he was up every 2 hours every night until he was 1. Kids can be sleep deprived home with their parents too. Every parent wants to do what's best for their kids (and themselves), and for some families, that's sleep training.
Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 11:26     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Why do people who don’t believe in sleep training feel the need to stir the pot? We get it that you have some cavalier attitude about your parenting choices. Keep it to yourself or go start an anti sleep training group to find like minded people. It’s not an unsafe thing to do, my friends sleep trained kids was a thousand times more well rested than my baby was before I sleep trained. In short, STFO about other peoples parenting decisions and MYOB.
Anonymous
Post 07/05/2022 10:50     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have known plenty of sleep deprived babies and toddlers. It impacts everything, just like in adults. They’re moody, quick to get upset, have difficulty training. People that let their kids go for their first most formative years in that state are misguided and doing their kids a disservice. I pity those kids, same as you probably pity mine.



Only those in daycare settings or home with lots of other kids. If you let a baby and toddler sleep when and how they want, they aren’t sleep deprived.


DP. This is a laughably ignorant statement.


No, it isn’t. When a baby can sleep on their own schedule they aren’t sleep deprived. A baby cannot sleep on his/her own schedule in daycare.


Since when can’t a baby sleep on their schedule in daycare? Any high quality daycare follows an infants sleep and feeding cues. They are not on a schedule.


Oof, this is not how most daycares function. It's not realistic.

My child's natural schedule as a baby was to wake at 6am, nap from 8:30-10:30, eat and play, then nap from noon-1:30 or so, then eat and play, then another 15-30 minute nap before dinner. No daycare was going to accommodate that.


What is there to "accommodate"?! It sounds like you have zero experience with daycare. At least, not any good daycares.
Anonymous
Post 07/04/2022 23:04     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:CIO shouldn't result in hours of crying. It might be 10 minutes over a few days.


And yet it usually does. We tried it for naps, not night sleep, and I deeply regret it. It was HOURS of crying for 3 days. The kids who stop being immediately and sleep probably are good sleepers who didn’t need sleep training to begin with. It’s cruel, protracted, and often doesn’t even work for bad sleepers.
Anonymous
Post 07/04/2022 20:52     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:The assumption from the anti-CIO crowd is that the child is crying for comfort. The problem is many of these babies, including mine, screamed and cried while being held by a parent. For hours. Day after day. At one point I figured if being here isn’t helping, perhaps going would be an improvement. Turns out, she was using me as a way to stimulate herself and refused to calm down. Once I left, she went right to sleep. She cried less when I left her alone. How’s that for different strokes for different folks?


+1. Same here.
Anonymous
Post 07/04/2022 17:31     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
The assumption from the anti-CIO crowd is that the child is crying for comfort. The problem is many of these babies, including mine, screamed and cried while being held by a parent. For hours. Day after day. At one point I figured if being here isn’t helping, perhaps going would be an improvement. Turns out, she was using me as a way to stimulate herself and refused to calm down. Once I left, she went right to sleep. She cried less when I left her alone. How’s that for different strokes for different folks?
Anonymous
Post 07/03/2022 14:17     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I dunno. Subjecting your kid to sleep deprivation is pretty cruel, too. We sleep trained because our baby was *clearly* exhausted. She needed sleep, too.


+1000. Sleep deprivation is recognized as a form of torture by the UN Convention Against Torture. Letting my child cry it out tortured me, but the immediate change in his temperament-- from cranky and unhappy to cheerful and energetic-- was dramatic and a total vindication. One of the best parenting decisions I ever made.


Comments like this lead me to believe that a lot of this argument is based on having very different babies with very different sleep issues.

I didn't sleep train my baby and this in no way led to sleep deprivation for her. It was at times challenging for me but I figured out how to get the sleep I needed. But she slept fine, it's just that she didn't STTN until 9 or 10 months. She'd wake up once or twice, I'd nurse her, she'd fall back asleep within 5-10 minutes. Eventually she stopped waking up. At no point was she getting so little sleep that she was cranky. She also napped well that first year. And she's never had any sleep issues beyond a few minor regressions since learning to sleep at night on her own.

I am guessing people who sleep train have babies who are not merely waking up at night, but doing so frequently and are not going back to sleep quickly or easily as mine did. I'm guessing this is precisely what sleep training is for -- babies who have a hard enough time sleeping that it impacts their mood and temperament.

So for some people, sleep training is essential, and for others, it is superfluous. That's why these comments about how people who sleep train are cruel, or people who don't are cruel, make no sense. You should only do it if your baby has a problem with sleep that needs solving. My baby didn't have a problem with sleep -- she was good at it and got plenty of it. It's just that for a long while she'd wake up in the middle of the night and want a snuggle and something to eat, and we gave it to her. No sleep deprivation. Not cruel at all.
Anonymous
Post 07/03/2022 14:09     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:Who knows if CIO leads to anxiety etc etc. It’s on a spectrum of “firm but loving” things that have been done to children for generations that we are evolving out of. Thank goodness.

Re: pediatricians. They don’t know any more than the rest of us about the neuroscience of babies. Trust them when your kid gets RSV or has torticollis. Follow their vaccine recs. Emotional health? No way.


This is so true on pediatricians. Most of the behavioral/emotional developmental advice you get from pediatricians is based not on specialized knowledge but a combination of AAP recommendations and observation, the latter of which can be very easily biased.

I am not opposed to sleep training but could not personally do it -- I am a weirdo who enjoyed nighttime feeds and I had a lot of leeway with return to work so it was not imperative for me. I remember my pediatrician asking at our 6 mo appointment if DC was STTN yet and when I said no (we were still doing one feeding at night), the doctor got all worked up about it and said we needed to sleep train and that it was "not normal" for the baby to be waking up for food at that age. It felt like she was shaming me for not sleep training and assumed the night wake ups were burdensome (they were not at that stage -- they were short and easy and had become part of my routine enough that it was doable). By 9 months, DC was STTN on his own without training, but the doctor assumed we'd sleep trained without asking and this clearly confirmed for her that she had been "right" in telling us to sleep train. We got similar advice during potty training -- just strict instructions that did not work with how we chose to approach it, and then when our kid was successfully potty trained she credited her advice that we had totally ignored.

She is otherwise a great pediatrician, and I trust her implicitly on medical issues. But for behavioral stuff we consult other sources (actual behavioral experts) and reach our own conclusions.
Anonymous
Post 07/03/2022 14:07     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:The problem is that those who are insensitive enough to do CIO aren’t sensitive enough to understand the potential downsides—and they probably don’t even believe that some children are highly sensitive and need more support than others. They aren’t second-guessers or worriers and hopefully their children inherit their toughness.

We have an epidemic of anxiety in this country and so many successful people who are over reactive or have intimacy issues. It’s not about attachment…it’s about the infant brain and emotional patterning we barely understand. It’s very tough to study this stuff but the one neonatologist I know says she would never CIO because of the unknowns.


You've packed a truly impressive number of assumptions into a relatively short post. Congratulations?
Anonymous
Post 07/03/2022 14:04     Subject: Re:Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
I think CIO is unnecessary and cruel, but come ON. I’m a criminal defense attorney and I can tell you that people do things to children that are FAR more heartless and cruel. CIO does not even come close.
Anonymous
Post 07/03/2022 14:01     Subject: Cry it out is the most heartless and cruel thing you can do to a child…
Anonymous wrote:I dunno. Subjecting your kid to sleep deprivation is pretty cruel, too. We sleep trained because our baby was *clearly* exhausted. She needed sleep, too.


+1000. Sleep deprivation is recognized as a form of torture by the UN Convention Against Torture. Letting my child cry it out tortured me, but the immediate change in his temperament-- from cranky and unhappy to cheerful and energetic-- was dramatic and a total vindication. One of the best parenting decisions I ever made.