Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, didn't Tyler Black have some twitter thread recently where he was arguing that CANADIAN suicides went down during lockdown, and therefore there was no mental health crises among children? I get that he's a "suicidologist" so maybe he can ONLY see things through the lens of completed suicides, but he ignores the findings of suicide ATTEMPTS (that may or may not have led to hospital intervention). As well as allllllll of the other literature on mental health impacts that aren't related to suicide.

All I know is that during the pandemic is the only time I’ve ever had to take one of MY children to the ER and have them admitted for a week due to serious suicidal ideation.

Sorry, your experience is invalid as a way to make policy unless you can connect it to an RCT proving that children’s mental health is worse because of the pandemic or mitigation measures and excluding all other possible confounding factors (I don’t really think that and I am very sorry about your child and hope things have improved), but that’s basically what those of us who want sensible mitigation are being told.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is a relief to read these comments from people who are progressive, pro-science, pro-vaccine. It's a relief to not feel like I'm the only one who feels this way or like I can't talk about this in public for fear of being branded anti-teacher, anti-vac, anti-science.

I think reading these comments is galvanizing me to be more vocal about what I think should be a more reasonable approach. I do feel like I've been walking on eggshells for months because for a long time I wanted to be respectful of people who I do think had reasonable fears and concerns earlier in the pandemic -- teachers, immunocompromised people, even people who I don't have a higher exposure or mortality risk but simply were very anxious. I have had empathy throughout the pandemic and still do, and recognize that my position is privileged in many ways (and not in others, it must be said -- we cannot afford in home childcare, full stop, and we have to work).

But it's time to be forward looking, and it's definitely time to account for the basic childcare, mental health, and academic needs of working families and their kids. I don't want to make anyone sick and I don't want anyone to die. But it seems clear to me that we could do practical things like minimize quarantines, change the tenor of discussion about Covid in schools, and even dropping masks when cases are low, without jeopardizing anyone's life. I certainly don't see why we should maintain a mask mandate that relies on ineffectual cloth masks and masking very young children, even though neither of those things is likely to do anything but make some people feel better.

Basically, if a situation doesn't call for K95s, it probably shouldn't call for masks at all. And while I'm all for masking through this Omicron surge, we absolutely should be looking to remove the mandate when cases are lower, and look at other stressful precautions as well and consider if they are worth the impact on kids (overzealous asymptomatic testing, quarantines, etc.). It is time to synthesize what we know about Covid and Covid precautions with everything we ALREADY know about children, development, mental health, etc. It's not either or. We have to do both. There's no reason we can't -- I'd argue many other countries without the political divide over Covid we have in the US have been doing it the entire pandemic.

+1 well said

+2

+3

Solidarity.

+4 smart!

While I agree with all of this and consider myself a progressive Democrat, sadly the party's take on childcare and schools in COVID did not come as a surprise to me. For many years that party has been losing touch with working and middle class voters. Many of its pandemic policies treated public health bureacrats as gods and have total disregard for the realities of the kitchen table issues facing working families. The pandemic policies including around childcare and schools have been a lot easier on UMC people with Zoom jobs. When I discuss these issues with other supposedly liberal friends their response is often that the US should have universal income and childcare. Yeah that would be great but that's not the reality today and we have deal with today's problems. It's just a punt to absolve of responsibility for the pain the policies have and continue to cause.

I totally am with you. I really can’t relate to the liberal pols and media talking about COVID. The whole masking in school post vaccines and omicron (milder) is just too much. It’s a massive gas lighting to ignore what’s happening in the rest of the world and other states. The kids are fine and need to see faces again at school. I’m done with the party. Sadly I also can’t stand Rs. I’m going to become one of those angry protest voters and abstain.

What’s happening in the rest of the world is that the US has had the worst - the absolute worst by any measure - pandemic response of any similarly situated country. The worst cases. The worst deaths. The worst. We have at best inconsistently impelmented half hearted mitigation measures for the bulk of this pandemic and have removed what we have implemented too soon every single time. The idiots in charge across two administrations have stupidly pursued a vaccine only policy instead of a vaccine + policy. And no one in power has leveled with people to tell them vaccines in this case are not a silver bullet, that you can get infected over and over, that there’s no evidence successive infections are easier, that the idea viruses mutate to be less virulent is actually a myth, etc etc etc. We don’t even collect proper data (remember when we prematurely decided we wouldn’t track breakthrough?) We rant about the lack of RCTs on mitigation measures and xenophobically discount the evidence from countries like Japan, Singapore, NZ, HK, Korea, and yes China when it’s right in front of our eyes that they are living by and large much more “normally” than we have been - not because of some Asian magic or some subservient population- but rather because they have consistently and correctly implemented mitigation (probably because they have real world experiences with SARS circa 2003 and know what do so based on that and also know how dangerous SARS viruses are (news flash: it’s not the “common cold”). And as a matter of fact, we owe the fact that we can function at all as an economy at this point in large part BECAUSE China has taken a zero tolerance approach (guess where most of our stuff comes from and then imagine what would happen to us and our economy if China decided to stupidly “let it rip.”

Updated guidance from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AmerAcadPeds/status/1487081836891316228

“Research shows transmission in schools is low, especially when masking policies are enacted.”

“During this surge in cases, it’s more important than ever to make sure children and staff wear masks, regardless of vaccination status.”
“Now is not the time to let up.”

But, sure, let’s take the word of random fame and money and click seeking doctors and journalists over the entire academy dedicated children’s health.

Anonymous wrote:Also, didn't Tyler Black have some twitter thread recently where he was arguing that CANADIAN suicides went down during lockdown, and therefore there was no mental health crises among children? I get that he's a "suicidologist" so maybe he can ONLY see things through the lens of completed suicides, but he ignores the findings of suicide ATTEMPTS (that may or may not have led to hospital intervention). As well as allllllll of the other literature on mental health impacts that aren't related to suicide.

All I know is that during the pandemic is the only time I’ve ever had to take one of MY children to the ER and have them admitted for a week due to serious suicidal ideation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not about kids. It’s about signaling that you aren’t Republican, kids and their experiences be damned.

Sure, but the people who go that route are unintentionally signaling how not progressive they truly are, if they're more concerned with what other people think of them than policies that impact actual human children.

Congratulations you just described modern American liberalism

Anonymous wrote:Thank you!!! I sent it to the MCPS BOE, acting superintendent, and relevant folks on the county council, DHHS, etc.

I’d really appreciate folks who disagree that in-person education for kids is a priority providing substantive evidence to support that position. So far, I’ve seen none. If I’m missing it, I want to see.

The other point that I think that a lot of people either don’t know or ignore is that chronic stress is really, really not good for kids. Childhood (including through adolescence) is a unique developmental time. Chronic stress isn’t good for adults, but it’s differently bad for kids, and can lead to myriad negative outcomes throughout life.

Well said! Thank YOU!
You are my hero!!!

Anyone who wants to mask, just do it.
But stop trying to FREAK control everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Less closures, less lost learning, less Covid, and no evidence of harms. But I’m sure we will find reasons to discount this too.

https://mobile.twitter.com/meganranney/status/1486906696903634955

Here is my reason to discount this - I was able to open this yesterday and it said 13-14% less incidence of closure - but is this because of the local rules surrounding closures? I have ES kids, but my daycare co-workers are getting hit with quarantine after quarantine because their children need to isolate for 10 days after an exposure. Local rules often don't require quarantine if there is masking. When talking with friends, they are in favor of masking because they don't want so many quarantines. Basically, to say we need masking in schools because of quarantining and closure rules does not mean we need masking due to the risk of covid to children. Also, the study underneath stating that masks aren't harmful says that "We are unaware of published research on the long-term effects, if any, on intermittent masking." Being masked all day, indoors and outdoors in DC, is not intermittent. It also uses as evidence that children were not more afraid of masked versus unmasked health care professionals. Seriously, the baseline is whether or not children fear the individual in a mask? While using the profession that should of course use masks? I think we need to stop treating schools like they are hospitals.

+1 to all of this.

Also this Twitter thread is irritating because she like “see, masks are fine for kids, there are no issues, stop being over-emotional about it.” And then at the end she’s like “oh yes, of course we need a plan for ending masks after the surge, that’s self-evident, no one said masks forever.”

Lady, what do you even think were talking about? Most of us talking about removing school and daycare mask mandates know it wouldn’t be implemented until the surge ends. What is the point of acting like I’m insane for thinking two straight years of masking fir my preschooler is too much and we need and exit plan, and then being like “oh yeah, I mean, no one said masks forever.”

Some people will knee jerk fight you because they assume you’re an unvaccinated Covid-denier (even if you start with “I’m triple vaccinated and have supported most Covid restrictions for a long time.”).

Anonymous wrote:Less closures, less lost learning, less Covid, and no evidence of harms. But I’m sure we will find reasons to discount this too.

https://mobile.twitter.com/meganranney/status/1486906696903634955

Here is my reason to discount this - I was able to open this yesterday and it said 13-14% less incidence of closure - but is this because of the local rules surrounding closures? I have ES kids, but my daycare co-workers are getting hit with quarantine after quarantine because their children need to isolate for 10 days after an exposure. Local rules often don't require quarantine if there is masking. When talking with friends, they are in favor of masking because they don't want so many quarantines. Basically, to say we need masking in schools because of quarantining and closure rules does not mean we need masking due to the risk of covid to children. Also, the study underneath stating that masks aren't harmful says that "We are unaware of published research on the long-term effects, if any, on intermittent masking." Being masked all day, indoors and outdoors in DC, is not intermittent. It also uses as evidence that children were not more afraid of masked versus unmasked health care professionals. Seriously, the baseline is whether or not children fear the individual in a mask? While using the profession that should of course use masks? I think we need to stop treating schools like they are hospitals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is a relief to read these comments from people who are progressive, pro-science, pro-vaccine. It's a relief to not feel like I'm the only one who feels this way or like I can't talk about this in public for fear of being branded anti-teacher, anti-vac, anti-science.

I think reading these comments is galvanizing me to be more vocal about what I think should be a more reasonable approach. I do feel like I've been walking on eggshells for months because for a long time I wanted to be respectful of people who I do think had reasonable fears and concerns earlier in the pandemic -- teachers, immunocompromised people, even people who I don't have a higher exposure or mortality risk but simply were very anxious. I have had empathy throughout the pandemic and still do, and recognize that my position is privileged in many ways (and not in others, it must be said -- we cannot afford in home childcare, full stop, and we have to work).

But it's time to be forward looking, and it's definitely time to account for the basic childcare, mental health, and academic needs of working families and their kids. I don't want to make anyone sick and I don't want anyone to die. But it seems clear to me that we could do practical things like minimize quarantines, change the tenor of discussion about Covid in schools, and even dropping masks when cases are low, without jeopardizing anyone's life. I certainly don't see why we should maintain a mask mandate that relies on ineffectual cloth masks and masking very young children, even though neither of those things is likely to do anything but make some people feel better.

Basically, if a situation doesn't call for K95s, it probably shouldn't call for masks at all. And while I'm all for masking through this Omicron surge, we absolutely should be looking to remove the mandate when cases are lower, and look at other stressful precautions as well and consider if they are worth the impact on kids (overzealous asymptomatic testing, quarantines, etc.). It is time to synthesize what we know about Covid and Covid precautions with everything we ALREADY know about children, development, mental health, etc. It's not either or. We have to do both. There's no reason we can't -- I'd argue many other countries without the political divide over Covid we have in the US have been doing it the entire pandemic.

+1 well said

+2

+3

Solidarity.

+4 smart!

While I agree with all of this and consider myself a progressive Democrat, sadly the party's take on childcare and schools in COVID did not come as a surprise to me. For many years that party has been losing touch with working and middle class voters. Many of its pandemic policies treated public health bureacrats as gods and have total disregard for the realities of the kitchen table issues facing working families. The pandemic policies including around childcare and schools have been a lot easier on UMC people with Zoom jobs. When I discuss these issues with other supposedly liberal friends their response is often that the US should have universal income and childcare. Yeah that would be great but that's not the reality today and we have deal with today's problems. It's just a punt to absolve of responsibility for the pain the policies have and continue to cause.

I totally am with you. I really can’t relate to the liberal pols and media talking about COVID. The whole masking in school post vaccines and omicron (milder) is just too much. It’s a massive gas lighting to ignore what’s happening in the rest of the world and other states. The kids are fine and need to see faces again at school. I’m done with the party. Sadly I also can’t stand Rs. I’m going to become one of those angry protest voters and abstain.

Less closures, less lost learning, less Covid, and no evidence of harms. But I’m sure we will find reasons to discount this too.

https://mobile.twitter.com/meganranney/status/1486906696903634955

Anonymous wrote:It’s not about kids. It’s about signaling that you aren’t Republican, kids and their experiences be damned.

Sure, but the people who go that route are unintentionally signaling how not progressive they truly are, if they're more concerned with what other people think of them than policies that impact actual human children.

For people with kids in ECE, this conversation gets tiresome because people don't. understand it as a whole. They want to fixate on one issue at a time, and fight you on everything, when really what most of us are looking for is a balanced approach that addresses Covid concerns while also providing a realistic situation for these kids and families.

I am fine with masking in schools when case counts are high, even if imperfect for this age, because I want to avoid quarantines and teacher shortage. So my kid wearing a mask through the omicron surge is NBD to me because it seems to be obviously called for.

But I'd like a commitment to removing the mask requirement if and when cases come down, because my child has been wearing a mask to school for 2 years and I think that's a lot for a child this age to go without regularly seeing teachers and peers faces. Plus we know they are at low risk and their teachers are vaccinated. So I don't understand people who don't want to talk about removing masks when cases come down. And if we do that, we actually do have to talk about it now, when they are high, so it actually happens. Thus the conversation.

The other piece is that we now have tools we didn't have earlier in the pandemic, and I think it's worthwhile to talk about how those might help us get rid of masks, if we can agree that getting rid of masks would be good. We now have much more readily available testing, which should make it much easier to catch both symptomatic and asymptomatic cases before they enter a classroom. But testing is also hard on kids this age. Nasal swabs of ECE kids can be tough and could actually be traumatic for some kids depending on how administered (not being hyperbolic, just acknowledging that it's not typical for 4 and 5 year olds to have swabs up their nose regularly, especially administered by strangers at school).

We also have vaccines for 5 yr olds at least, though they are not mandatory and probably can't be made mandatory until full FDA approval, which may not be forthcoming anytime soon.

A rational conversation about schools and Covid would take all these tools, identify which work best and which don't, which combination works best, etc. And then ALSO discuss the negative impacts of all of these. Which yes, would include possible ill effects of masks, the stress of regular testing, and at the challenges of vaccines when many parents are still unsure about vaccinating kids this young. AND it would also factor in things like the rates of Covid in kids this age, both the general population and more at-risk children, the threat posed to teachers, staff, and families at home, and how the surrounding community is doing.

One thing I like about the Urgency of Normal people is that their analysis actually involves all of these metrics. This is how policy-making is actually supposed to work. You may or may not agree with all their conclusions, but if you aren't willing to engage in a conversation like this (where all options are explored, all benefits and negatives weighed, and choices made based on priorities and YES some degree of compromise because the world is an imperfect place), it just makes it impossible to move forward.

That's why the "Just wear a mask!" and 'What, so you want people to die?" people are frustrating. Because neither of those things is even the point. My kid does just wear a mask and no, none of us wants anyone to die. We are having a grown up conversation, you are just yelling the same 5 things you've been yelling since April 2020. Do you see the difference?

Try reading the document, engaging with this conversation, and actually coming up with a proposed solution that meets your safety goals while also accounting for things like efficacy, negative externalities, and context. Otherwise, just sit it out.

It’s not about kids. It’s about signaling that you aren’t Republican, kids and their experiences be damned.

Anonymous wrote:There isn't a lot of evidence to suggest that masks for kids in school is helping with omicron spread. It's potentially useful for shorter interactions (eg store, bus) but unless everyone is wearing n95s all the time it just covid theater. My kid wears a mask all day except breakfast, lunch, snack, and nap. And when he puts it below his nose. Daycare teacher almost never has the nose covered!! Stop pretending and take them off in cases where you're gonna be in a room with someone for hours on end. I'm not anti mask. I just want people to use them when it will actually help.

I feel differently about this when it was the original strain or delta, since masks were more effective.

This. It's absolutely theater to have kids wearing loose masks all day, and then eating indoors in large groups, and in the case of daycare kids, all napping unmasked in the same room.