Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not understanding this. OPs aunt was in a subpar hospice then moved to a better hospice. Great. OPs parents want to live at home, despite the fact that she feels they would get more support at a facility, and thinks someone should be forcing them into this facility?

This sounds really stressful but I’m not sure what can reasonably be done when two stubborn elderly have decided they are staying in their home.

My parents wanted to stay at home but now realize due to their failing health, that they need to compromise. Finally. They will not go to a ‘facility’. They can afford their own condo in community specifically for older seniors that provides socialization, meals, etc. and will bring someone in to help them when needed. They will now be very close to family for additional support. The cash from the SF home they are selling will be more than enough. There are many solutions out there for elders that don’t involve a nursing home

I hope they read the fine print. My parents thought that was a great compromise. But typically, those places will not permit people who cannot physically care for each other or themselves to live independently and will force them into the skilled nursing care. I warned my parents of this, and within 12 months of moving into their independent living apartment, they forced my father into nursing care--in the middle of the pandemic, so my mother didn't lay eyes on him for over 6 months. He died a year later, just last week. These solutions are not what you all think they are. They can work out great for those who are physically independent, but once they are not, it's really awful.

Not true at this place. People buy there and they provide a list of vetted caregivers/agencies for people to hire from. With that and family within two miles, they will be able to sty until their death.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not understanding this. OPs aunt was in a subpar hospice then moved to a better hospice. Great. OPs parents want to live at home, despite the fact that she feels they would get more support at a facility, and thinks someone should be forcing them into this facility?

This sounds really stressful but I’m not sure what can reasonably be done when two stubborn elderly have decided they are staying in their home.

My parents wanted to stay at home but now realize due to their failing health, that they need to compromise. Finally. They will not go to a ‘facility’. They can afford their own condo in community specifically for older seniors that provides socialization, meals, etc. and will bring someone in to help them when needed. They will now be very close to family for additional support. The cash from the SF home they are selling will be more than enough. There are many solutions out there for elders that don’t involve a nursing home

I hope they read the fine print. My parents thought that was a great compromise. But typically, those places will not permit people who cannot physically care for each other or themselves to live independently and will force them into the skilled nursing care. I warned my parents of this, and within 12 months of moving into their independent living apartment, they forced my father into nursing care--in the middle of the pandemic, so my mother didn't lay eyes on him for over 6 months. He died a year later, just last week. These solutions are not what you all think they are. They can work out great for those who are physically independent, but once they are not, it's really awful.

Of course they won't let you live independently if you cannot live independently?! Most people are in denial about their level of need, but once professionals are involved they will assess level of need. You act like this is nefarious. Nobody predicted a pandemic. You act like getting the right level of care killed him. He lived a full year longer after being moved. Does not sound like they did him in. Sounds like you buried your head in the sand about what your father's level of functioning was and now you are scapegoating a nursing home.

OP it’s a very difficult situation. And the other 32 family members who did nothing will all have opinions. They may even blame you.
As for the SW. Some are great but others … it’s a field that attracts some bossy and unpleasant people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Medicare services are based on medical necessity as ordered by the physician, not on what is easier for the social worker. However even for people who qualify for in home personal care services (people who meet nursing home level of care and meet Medicaid income and eligibility requirements mostly) it is extremely hard to find qualified workers right now. Also extremely hard to find nursing home beds. Social workers can’t fix that.

So since my aunt is end stage pancreatic cancer, lives alone ,has no kids, I guess the hospice will leave her in bed to die and rot,right? Because I am leaving in a week regardless - I have no choice.

Do you think the social worker has more choice to move in with her than you do? Or more responsibility?

I'm not saying you have responsibility to do so. I'm saying your problem -- and it is a problem, since you are taking it out on other people -- is in insisting others have more responsibility than you. It is not sufficient to compel you, but that does not follow that that it must then be sufficient to compel them.

It’s not my problem. And I won’t make it my problem.The state MUST step in as the situation is unsafe. That’s the damn law.

The state must step in to make decisions for an adult that meets the legal definitions of competence in this area, against their explicit and expressed wishes? At gunpoint, or just by having the police drag them and then, I guess, handcuff them in place?

According to hospice, she no longer meets the legal definition of competence. Such is the dying process

Right, but does that particular hospice make the decision, or is it someone else, such as a judge? Because sometimes people will tell you things that are not true. You know this.

You can walk away right now. Absolutely. If you want to spend any more energy or time on this effectively, then you first get this ruling made -- and this is key -- by the person who can make it. If that fails there is nothing you or anyone else can do against her wishes. If it goes through, then when you leave, the machinery of the hospital can do things that they didn't before.

Have you watched someone die? They are no longer coherent and can’t speak sense. The decision of competence becomes obvious

First, that is not what has been described in OP's problem. Second, if nobody were taking her as competent to refuse, then OP would have nobody she had to push back against.

We can talk about situations that aren't actually happening if you really want, but that would only be for your entertainment. It wouldn't address what is actually happening here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you aren’t getting it, OP. These aren’t just well-meaning words. The SW is trying to explain something to you. Your parents are adults, and they can make their own decisions about where to live and how to run their lives whether you agree with them or not. In fact, there is no other option. Medical professionals can’t force people to make better decisions about their health and finances.

If they are competent nothing can be done.

This, 100%. Why do people think they can force their adult parents into something they don't want? My sisters did this to my parents and the results have been horrendous. My father just died two weeks ago, 18 months after moving out of his house and as a result of horrible care that was forced on him by the senior community they moved into. They both would have been better off if they had stayed at home, even if meant falling down the stairs or some other accident that may or may not end their lives. Let old people live and die as they wish. I'm so sick and tired of the know-it-alls coming on here thinking they know better. I urge everybody to read Being Mortal and gain a better understanding of how priorotizing safety over living is ruining the lives of the elderly.

Here are just a few of the issues I faced with age in place parents over many years. Their plan is not just to frolic at home come what may. They expect the adult children to enable it all and their requests grow exponentially. When you finally start setting boundarie3s the rage fits come. So you spend the last 6 years being the dutiful daughter and now you are satan and deserve verbal abuse often. Some relatives will join in harassing you. Others will harass you because you haven't put the parent in a home yet, but they certainly won't help you with that because that is YOUR job.

The fallout I see among peers and myself is they eat their young. You get the therapy, you join support groups, but as you manage parenthood, work, your own marriage and life stressors, etc it eats away at your health whether you help as much as they want or set limits.

And...there is the fallout of them harming strangers-you took away the car keys and she convinced her brother to get her a new car that she could potentially murder someone with because mommy isn't required to take a driving test at 80!

And no matter what you do...put her in residential or keep her at home in a dysfunctional family everyone blames the adult child-usually a daughter.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not understanding this. OPs aunt was in a subpar hospice then moved to a better hospice. Great. OPs parents want to live at home, despite the fact that she feels they would get more support at a facility, and thinks someone should be forcing them into this facility?

This sounds really stressful but I’m not sure what can reasonably be done when two stubborn elderly have decided they are staying in their home.

My parents wanted to stay at home but now realize due to their failing health, that they need to compromise. Finally. They will not go to a ‘facility’. They can afford their own condo in community specifically for older seniors that provides socialization, meals, etc. and will bring someone in to help them when needed. They will now be very close to family for additional support. The cash from the SF home they are selling will be more than enough. There are many solutions out there for elders that don’t involve a nursing home

I hope they read the fine print. My parents thought that was a great compromise. But typically, those places will not permit people who cannot physically care for each other or themselves to live independently and will force them into the skilled nursing care. I warned my parents of this, and within 12 months of moving into their independent living apartment, they forced my father into nursing care--in the middle of the pandemic, so my mother didn't lay eyes on him for over 6 months. He died a year later, just last week. These solutions are not what you all think they are. They can work out great for those who are physically independent, but once they are not, it's really awful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you aren’t getting it, OP. These aren’t just well-meaning words. The SW is trying to explain something to you. Your parents are adults, and they can make their own decisions about where to live and how to run their lives whether you agree with them or not. In fact, there is no other option. Medical professionals can’t force people to make better decisions about their health and finances.

If they are competent nothing can be done.

This, 100%. Why do people think they can force their adult parents into something they don't want? My sisters did this to my parents and the results have been horrendous. My father just died two weeks ago, 18 months after moving out of his house and as a result of horrible care that was forced on him by the senior community they moved into. They both would have been better off if they had stayed at home, even if meant falling down the stairs or some other accident that may or may not end their lives. Let old people live and die as they wish. I'm so sick and tired of the know-it-alls coming on here thinking they know better. I urge everybody to read Being Mortal and gain a better understanding of how priorotizing safety over living is ruining the lives of the elderly.

Anonymous wrote:I’m not understanding this. OPs aunt was in a subpar hospice then moved to a better hospice. Great. OPs parents want to live at home, despite the fact that she feels they would get more support at a facility, and thinks someone should be forcing them into this facility?

This sounds really stressful but I’m not sure what can reasonably be done when two stubborn elderly have decided they are staying in their home.

My parents wanted to stay at home but now realize due to their failing health, that they need to compromise. Finally. They will not go to a ‘facility’. They can afford their own condo in community specifically for older seniors that provides socialization, meals, etc. and will bring someone in to help them when needed. They will now be very close to family for additional support. The cash from the SF home they are selling will be more than enough. There are many solutions out there for elders that don’t involve a nursing home

Anonymous wrote:I’m not understanding this. OPs aunt was in a subpar hospice then moved to a better hospice. Great. OPs parents want to live at home, despite the fact that she feels they would get more support at a facility, and thinks someone should be forcing them into this facility?

This sounds really stressful but I’m not sure what can reasonably be done when two stubborn elderly have decided they are staying in their home.

Hospice is at home unless you pay for it out of pocket. Medicare does not pay for inpatient hospice unless you are actively dying. Then they will take you into a hospice center. Medicare only pays for 5 days inpatient unless it’s a hospital. Actively dying is not what you think it is. Actively dying means dying within a day or hours. First place would not even define it. Second hospice is one that is non-profit, so is much more compassionate about services.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Medicare services are based on medical necessity as ordered by the physician, not on what is easier for the social worker. However even for people who qualify for in home personal care services (people who meet nursing home level of care and meet Medicaid income and eligibility requirements mostly) it is extremely hard to find qualified workers right now. Also extremely hard to find nursing home beds. Social workers can’t fix that.

So since my aunt is end stage pancreatic cancer, lives alone ,has no kids, I guess the hospice will leave her in bed to die and rot,right? Because I am leaving in a week regardless - I have no choice.

Do you think the social worker has more choice to move in with her than you do? Or more responsibility?

I'm not saying you have responsibility to do so. I'm saying your problem -- and it is a problem, since you are taking it out on other people -- is in insisting others have more responsibility than you. It is not sufficient to compel you, but that does not follow that that it must then be sufficient to compel them.

It’s not my problem. And I won’t make it my problem.The state MUST step in as the situation is unsafe. That’s the damn law.

The state must step in to make decisions for an adult that meets the legal definitions of competence in this area, against their explicit and expressed wishes? At gunpoint, or just by having the police drag them and then, I guess, handcuff them in place?

According to hospice, she no longer meets the legal definition of competence. Such is the dying process

Right, but does that particular hospice make the decision, or is it someone else, such as a judge? Because sometimes people will tell you things that are not true. You know this.

You can walk away right now. Absolutely. If you want to spend any more energy or time on this effectively, then you first get this ruling made -- and this is key -- by the person who can make it. If that fails there is nothing you or anyone else can do against her wishes. If it goes through, then when you leave, the machinery of the hospital can do things that they didn't before.

Have you watched someone die? They are no longer coherent and can’t speak sense. The decision of competence becomes obvious

I’m not understanding this. OPs aunt was in a subpar hospice then moved to a better hospice. Great. OPs parents want to live at home, despite the fact that she feels they would get more support at a facility, and thinks someone should be forcing them into this facility?

This sounds really stressful but I’m not sure what can reasonably be done when two stubborn elderly have decided they are staying in their home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Medicare services are based on medical necessity as ordered by the physician, not on what is easier for the social worker. However even for people who qualify for in home personal care services (people who meet nursing home level of care and meet Medicaid income and eligibility requirements mostly) it is extremely hard to find qualified workers right now. Also extremely hard to find nursing home beds. Social workers can’t fix that.

So since my aunt is end stage pancreatic cancer, lives alone ,has no kids, I guess the hospice will leave her in bed to die and rot,right? Because I am leaving in a week regardless - I have no choice.

Do you think the social worker has more choice to move in with her than you do? Or more responsibility?

I'm not saying you have responsibility to do so. I'm saying your problem -- and it is a problem, since you are taking it out on other people -- is in insisting others have more responsibility than you. It is not sufficient to compel you, but that does not follow that that it must then be sufficient to compel them.

It’s not my problem. And I won’t make it my problem.The state MUST step in as the situation is unsafe. That’s the damn law.

The state must step in to make decisions for an adult that meets the legal definitions of competence in this area, against their explicit and expressed wishes? At gunpoint, or just by having the police drag them and then, I guess, handcuff them in place?

According to hospice, she no longer meets the legal definition of competence. Such is the dying process

Right, but does that particular hospice make the decision, or is it someone else, such as a judge? Because sometimes people will tell you things that are not true. You know this.

You can walk away right now. Absolutely. If you want to spend any more energy or time on this effectively, then you first get this ruling made -- and this is key -- by the person who can make it. If that fails there is nothing you or anyone else can do against her wishes. If it goes through, then when you leave, the machinery of the hospital can do things that they didn't before.

Anonymous wrote:OP, go back home. Go back to your house and your husband, and reopen your business. It's time for you to step back now.

Why isn't your sister helping more?

You say that you have a very large family and that you are one of 32 nieces and nephews. Why is no one else volunteering?
Why should it be YOU?

I was in a similar position years ago, when my father (a widower) was very ill but he refused to move to more appropriate accommodation and he also cancelled the home aides I had organized for him.

I am an only child and my husband and I live 6 hours away.
DH and I would drive to my father's house whenever we were able to, to help at weekends (DH and I both work) but in the end it was unsustainable to drive there every weekend.

Most of my (able-bodied) relatives lived about 10 minutes away from my father's house but NO ONE volunteered to help, even just checking in or calling my father to see if he was OK.
To be fair, one of my uncles and his wife did buy and deliver my father's groceries for a while but they grew tired of it eventually.

The burden landed on my shoulders in the end, even if I lived 6 hours away.

I’m so sorry to hear that no one was willing to help you either. It’s really so sad, isn’t it? I was given a list of vetted caregivers by the new hospice and it was like being thrown a lifeline! I would know where to look in my own state but here I’m at a loss. I started calling today. She also had a younger friend of hers come forward today and ask if she can come help as well. What a Godsend! She’s a wonderful lady - know my folks and my aunt for over 22 years and I gotta tell you, my aunt is a very difficult person. TBH, she’s going downhill fast so I’ll probably stay at least another week, now that the new hospice is in place as well as her friend, and someone we hire by the hour. A few cousins stepped forward and offered to help fund the caregivers. That’s going to help a lot!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grow up. Your aunt needs a nursing home and 24-7 care. Stop expecting others to deal with it. She can not care for herself.

DUH! She is refusing to go and that’s that.

When can I expect you to come and step in?

What does your aunt think is going to happen if she doesn’t go, and she can’t care for herself at home?

She doesn’t think about that because she can’t. According to the new hospice, the other hospice was not balancing her meds right and not giving her anti-anxiety meds which is critical during the dying process. I expect things to settle down soon.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grow up. Your aunt needs a nursing home and 24-7 care. Stop expecting others to deal with it. She can not care for herself.

DUH! She is refusing to go and that’s that.

When can I expect you to come and step in?

DP. I’m willing to help. What, exactly, are you looking for?

Come on out and take my place? I’ve been doing this a month and am exhausted beyond recognition.