Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muhammad’s historicity is similarly debated. The Quran was written down 20 years after his death (echos of Paul). The Hadith were written 2-3 hundred years later. There’s no record the Muslim conquerors across North Africa mentioned Mohammed or Islam, nor did their conquered subjects, until about 80 years in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

https://compassthroughchaos.medium.com/muhammad-is-as-real-as-the-lord-of-the-rings-5322b0bbe1

Yup. Just like Jesus, he “most likely” but we don’t have definitive evidence.

Who decides if evidence is "definitive?"

There is evidence (fact). Whether anyone is persuaded by that evidence is up to each individual.

Unbiased people

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muhammad’s historicity is similarly debated. The Quran was written down 20 years after his death (echos of Paul). The Hadith were written 2-3 hundred years later. There’s no record the Muslim conquerors across North Africa mentioned Mohammed or Islam, nor did their conquered subjects, until about 80 years in.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad

https://compassthroughchaos.medium.com/muhammad-is-as-real-as-the-lord-of-the-rings-5322b0bbe1

Yup. Just like Jesus, he “most likely” but we don’t have definitive evidence.

Who decides if evidence is "definitive?"

There is evidence (fact). Whether anyone is persuaded by that evidence is up to each individual.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

^^^ Must.bump.thread. Because I have no hobbies outside of DCUM.

Bumping it after 3+ hrs? Yes, that seems desperate.

As opposed to responding to that bump, which is completely normal in every way.

Just funny to complain about bumping a thread - by bumping a thread.

good one -- plus, nothing wrong with reiterating a point, i.e., bumping a thread

If you say so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

^^^ Must.bump.thread. Because I have no hobbies outside of DCUM.

Bumping it after 3+ hrs? Yes, that seems desperate.

As opposed to responding to that bump, which is completely normal in every way.

Just funny to complain about bumping a thread - by bumping a thread.

good one -- plus, nothing wrong with reiterating a point, i.e., bumping a thread

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

I found it interesting not only because of the examples of religious switching related in this thread, but also in a larger sense to OP's original question: Does it matter whether Jesus was divine or where Christian theology came from, if it's not speaking to people today? (Obviously it still speaks to many people, but the increasing rate of religious switching suggests that it's fewer people every year).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

^^^ Must.bump.thread. Because I have no hobbies outside of DCUM.

Bumping it after 3+ hrs? Yes, that seems desperate.

As opposed to responding to that bump, which is completely normal in every way.

Just funny to complain about bumping a thread - by bumping a thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

^^^ Must.bump.thread. Because I have no hobbies outside of DCUM.

Bumping it after 3+ hrs? Yes, that seems desperate.

As opposed to responding to that bump, which is completely normal in every way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

^^^ Must.bump.thread. Because I have no hobbies outside of DCUM.

Bumping it after 3+ hrs? Yes, that seems desperate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

^^^ Must.bump.thread. Because I have no hobbies outside of DCUM.

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

thanks - hadn't seen it. Interesting.

Did anyone see the religious switching poll done by Pew recently?
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/09/29/religious-switching-patterns-will-help-determine-christianitys-course-in-u-s/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since someone asked. Christianity makes the most logical sense to me. At work I’m steeped in logic and quantitative analysis. And I simply can’t believe that an omnipotent God cares what I eat or how I bathe. Or that God chooses to elevate one people over others. I find Jesus’ message of loving your enemy crucial in this age when the world is connected by the internet in split seconds. I’m a very progressive Christian: I follow the Christ who thought even nonbelievers could be more godlike than those who just demonstrate how they go through empty rituals.

Thanks for sharing.

Is this the same religion your family had growing up?

How did you explore other religions? How much time did you spend on each?

How long did it take for you to come to this conclusion?

I took a class on Islam in college and we read the Quran over the course of a semester while learning context. It took me almost a year to read Genesis through Maccabees, while taking classes about archeology and interpretation for context.

I’m not done learning yet—nobody ever is. But I’ve known these basic differences for a while, and my choice is based on them.

Surprised you’re not interested in the contrasting theological points I made. It’s almost like you keep trying to find something to poke holes in.

Peace.

I am more interested in the process than the specifics of any particular religion. There are plenty of other threads to get into your theological points if you want to discuss them.

Do you feel like just going off of “basic differences” is enough to choose?

Did you have any spiritual guidance when learning about other religions? Did you attend any religious services of other religions?

Is this the same religion you grew up with? Are you still exploring other religions?

A Jewish poster also answered your demands to know their choice. Why aren’t you asking them the same question? Or the Buddhist who’s been posting?

Jewish PP here. Shanah Tovah! Happy New Year, everyone! Though PP's questions weren't directed at me, I'm happy to answer them.

Do you feel like just going off of “basic differences” is enough to choose?

For me, "basic differences" were at first rooted in the biases of the religion in which I grew up (conservative Protestantism). The Christian PP at 09/24/2022 22:04 shares what he finds meaningful in Christian theology in contrast presumably with Judaism (the reference to laws about what we can eat, personal hygiene, and the covenant with God). I'd like to point out that those "basic differences" are based on a Christian understanding of those laws and covenants, and that the Jewish interpretation of them:
a. varies. There is a Jewish saying: "Two Jews, three opinions."
b. is much more complex than God caring about what we eat or how we bathe, and that being "the chosen people" is not understood in Judaism as a lessening of other people, in the way that I think PP is interpreting all of that.

That's not to say that I think Christian PP should convert, or that one needs to have an in-depth understanding of all religions in order to "pick" one. Plenty of people are happy and find deep meaning in the religion into which they were born, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Plenty of people do basic comparative religion from the point of view of their own religion and confirm that they like their own beliefs, and that's fine too. It's "enough" for the purposes of choosing a religion if it leads someone to happiness and meaning in their religion.

Did you have any spiritual guidance when learning about other religions? Did you attend any religious services of other religions?

I was raised in my Protestant church. For me, that meant I was baptized, went occasionally to services and Sunday school, went through confirmation classes, celebrated major holidays in mostly secular ways (Christmas tree, Easter bunny). I also attended church with family and friends who were Catholic, Evangelical, and other forms of Protestant.

When I was older, I considered myself agnostic. My dad is pretty much atheist and I took a lot of my cues from him and from The Daily Show and other political satire/comedy that mocked religion.

In college, when I began to explore other Protestant denominations, I attended various churches (Congregationalist, Unitarian Universalist, Lutheran, Presbyterian). I also spoke with my devout grandma, the pastors at these various churches, and my college professors and other college staff who were religious (of various religions).

When I started exploring Judaism, I attended a synagogue every week and talked to the rabbi and a couple of my Jewish professors. I read books about Jewish thought that were recommended to me (both Judaism 101 type books and books of Jewish thought by authors like Heschel and Kushner). I took a class offered by a visiting Israeli professor about antisemitism and another class on the archaeology of the bible taught by a non-religious professor. After a couple years attending synagogue services, I moved and joined a new synagogue, where I began formal conversion classes and discussions with the rabbis there.

Is this the same religion you grew up with? Are you still exploring other religions?

No, I was raised Protestant and now I'm Jewish. I spent some time after deciding on Judaism exploring different denominations. I started out Reform, then became Conservative*, went to a couple Reconstructionist synagogues, then Modern Orthodox for a while. I circled back to Conservative, where I am very happily raising my own family now.
*I should note that "Conservative Judaism" has no affiliation to conservative American politics. It's a bad name for a movement that is really about balancing adaptation to the modern world and conserving our traditions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since someone asked. Christianity makes the most logical sense to me. At work I’m steeped in logic and quantitative analysis. And I simply can’t believe that an omnipotent God cares what I eat or how I bathe. Or that God chooses to elevate one people over others. I find Jesus’ message of loving your enemy crucial in this age when the world is connected by the internet in split seconds. I’m a very progressive Christian: I follow the Christ who thought even nonbelievers could be more godlike than those who just demonstrate how they go through empty rituals.

Thanks for sharing.

Is this the same religion your family had growing up?

How did you explore other religions? How much time did you spend on each?

How long did it take for you to come to this conclusion?

I took a class on Islam in college and we read the Quran over the course of a semester while learning context. It took me almost a year to read Genesis through Maccabees, while taking classes about archeology and interpretation for context.

I’m not done learning yet—nobody ever is. But I’ve known these basic differences for a while, and my choice is based on them.

Surprised you’re not interested in the contrasting theological points I made. It’s almost like you keep trying to find something to poke holes in.

Peace.

I am more interested in the process than the specifics of any particular religion. There are plenty of other threads to get into your theological points if you want to discuss them.

Do you feel like just going off of “basic differences” is enough to choose?

Did you have any spiritual guidance when learning about other religions? Did you attend any religious services of other religions?

Is this the same religion you grew up with? Are you still exploring other religions?

A Jewish poster also answered your demands to know their choice. Why aren’t you asking them the same question? Or the Buddhist who’s been posting?

“Demands”. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.

There was a lot of hostility back and forth so I skipped over some posts. Questions are open for anyone to respond.

Uh huh. Sure.

Since you’ve read more of the posts than I have, what are the time stamps of the Buddhist and Jewish posters?

Jewish PP is at 09/21/2022 14:10 and 09/24/2022 13:46

First reference to Buddhism is at 09/23/2022 19:05

And Christians explaining their own thought process behind their beliefs at 09/24/2022 22:04 and 09/25/2022 12:16

Thanks pp. By not responding, I was trying to spare the other faiths the grilling atheist pp is giving Christians (and really these posts are just from the last few pages anyway so the request seemed disingenuous). But probably atheist pp only wants to attack Christians anyway so it doesn’t matter.

DP here. To be clear, Atheists disbelieve in all religions equally. Just as you disbelieve in all but your own. It may seem like some have a special issue with Christianity because it is the dominant religion still but trust me we don't not-believe any less in the many other religions.

Then you should be grilling the Jewish and Buddhist posters instead of aiming laughing emojis at me, no?

Apparently not. Laughing emoji troll only has eyes for one religion.

It makes sense to aim criticism of religion as a whole at the majority religion. Christianity is the most likely to impact an atheist's daily life, as it's often ingrained in our culture at large. I imagine if an atheist was in a majority Jewish or Buddhist culture, they would spend more time criticizing the religious encroachment on their lives of those religions instead.

Buddists and Jews would probably not bother encroaching on atheists.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since someone asked. Christianity makes the most logical sense to me. At work I’m steeped in logic and quantitative analysis. And I simply can’t believe that an omnipotent God cares what I eat or how I bathe. Or that God chooses to elevate one people over others. I find Jesus’ message of loving your enemy crucial in this age when the world is connected by the internet in split seconds. I’m a very progressive Christian: I follow the Christ who thought even nonbelievers could be more godlike than those who just demonstrate how they go through empty rituals.

Thanks for sharing.

Is this the same religion your family had growing up?

How did you explore other religions? How much time did you spend on each?

How long did it take for you to come to this conclusion?

I took a class on Islam in college and we read the Quran over the course of a semester while learning context. It took me almost a year to read Genesis through Maccabees, while taking classes about archeology and interpretation for context.

I’m not done learning yet—nobody ever is. But I’ve known these basic differences for a while, and my choice is based on them.

Surprised you’re not interested in the contrasting theological points I made. It’s almost like you keep trying to find something to poke holes in.

Peace.

I am more interested in the process than the specifics of any particular religion. There are plenty of other threads to get into your theological points if you want to discuss them.

Do you feel like just going off of “basic differences” is enough to choose?

Did you have any spiritual guidance when learning about other religions? Did you attend any religious services of other religions?

Is this the same religion you grew up with? Are you still exploring other religions?

A Jewish poster also answered your demands to know their choice. Why aren’t you asking them the same question? Or the Buddhist who’s been posting?

“Demands”. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.

There was a lot of hostility back and forth so I skipped over some posts. Questions are open for anyone to respond.

Uh huh. Sure.

Since you’ve read more of the posts than I have, what are the time stamps of the Buddhist and Jewish posters?

Jewish PP is at 09/21/2022 14:10 and 09/24/2022 13:46

First reference to Buddhism is at 09/23/2022 19:05

And Christians explaining their own thought process behind their beliefs at 09/24/2022 22:04 and 09/25/2022 12:16

Thanks pp. By not responding, I was trying to spare the other faiths the grilling atheist pp is giving Christians (and really these posts are just from the last few pages anyway so the request seemed disingenuous). But probably atheist pp only wants to attack Christians anyway so it doesn’t matter.

I was following up on comments where people specifically talked about the process they used to pick their religion.

I don't see anyone claiming they are Buddhist.

I'll check the others as soon as I can - busy week at work. I wasn't closely following all of posts when there was a lot of bickering back and forth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since someone asked. Christianity makes the most logical sense to me. At work I’m steeped in logic and quantitative analysis. And I simply can’t believe that an omnipotent God cares what I eat or how I bathe. Or that God chooses to elevate one people over others. I find Jesus’ message of loving your enemy crucial in this age when the world is connected by the internet in split seconds. I’m a very progressive Christian: I follow the Christ who thought even nonbelievers could be more godlike than those who just demonstrate how they go through empty rituals.

Thanks for sharing.

Is this the same religion your family had growing up?

How did you explore other religions? How much time did you spend on each?

How long did it take for you to come to this conclusion?

I took a class on Islam in college and we read the Quran over the course of a semester while learning context. It took me almost a year to read Genesis through Maccabees, while taking classes about archeology and interpretation for context.

I’m not done learning yet—nobody ever is. But I’ve known these basic differences for a while, and my choice is based on them.

Surprised you’re not interested in the contrasting theological points I made. It’s almost like you keep trying to find something to poke holes in.

Peace.

I am more interested in the process than the specifics of any particular religion. There are plenty of other threads to get into your theological points if you want to discuss them.

Do you feel like just going off of “basic differences” is enough to choose?

Did you have any spiritual guidance when learning about other religions? Did you attend any religious services of other religions?

Is this the same religion you grew up with? Are you still exploring other religions?

A Jewish poster also answered your demands to know their choice. Why aren’t you asking them the same question? Or the Buddhist who’s been posting?

“Demands”. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.

There was a lot of hostility back and forth so I skipped over some posts. Questions are open for anyone to respond.

Uh huh. Sure.

Since you’ve read more of the posts than I have, what are the time stamps of the Buddhist and Jewish posters?

Jewish PP is at 09/21/2022 14:10 and 09/24/2022 13:46

First reference to Buddhism is at 09/23/2022 19:05

And Christians explaining their own thought process behind their beliefs at 09/24/2022 22:04 and 09/25/2022 12:16

Thanks pp. By not responding, I was trying to spare the other faiths the grilling atheist pp is giving Christians (and really these posts are just from the last few pages anyway so the request seemed disingenuous). But probably atheist pp only wants to attack Christians anyway so it doesn’t matter.

DP here. To be clear, Atheists disbelieve in all religions equally. Just as you disbelieve in all but your own. It may seem like some have a special issue with Christianity because it is the dominant religion still but trust me we don't not-believe any less in the many other religions.

Then you should be grilling the Jewish and Buddhist posters instead of aiming laughing emojis at me, no?

Apparently not. Laughing emoji troll only has eyes for one religion.

It makes sense to aim criticism of religion as a whole at the majority religion. Christianity is the most likely to impact an atheist's daily life, as it's often ingrained in our culture at large. I imagine if an atheist was in a majority Jewish or Buddhist culture, they would spend more time criticizing the religious encroachment on their lives of those religions instead.