I did not read all the responses, but when studies have been done looking at students who did and did not get into Ivy+ schools off the wait list, it shows that on average those who do get in have higher earnings but that is really driven by a larger share at the top extreme of income (but that top extreme is still relatively rare). so some people experience a big benefit and most people don't.

https://forklightning.substack.com/p/the-lottery-for-high-paying-jobs
Think of it like winning the lottery. Suppose I told you and 9 of your closest friends that one of your group of 10 was going to win a prize - let’s say $1 million. But I don’t divide the tickets evenly. Since you attended an Ivy-Plus college, you get 2 tickets. Friends who attended a selective public university get one ticket, and those who didn’t go to college get none. Your odds are double anyone else’s, but you still probably won’t win. I increased your expected earnings. Going to an Ivy-Plus college gives you more chances to hit the jackpot. But among non-jackpot winners, things look pretty similar regardless of where you went to college.

Op, what is middling research? Scientific research?

Anonymous wrote:Ivies have always been primarily for the wealthy, athletes and nepos. If you are not one of those with a ivy degree, it's just a degree same as from State U.

+1 this

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have met multiple ivy degree holders working jobs in high school education, middling research depts, "self employed" scrapping by. Sure there are some high profile ivy leaguers but in the end many end up in same jobs as middling t200 degree holders.

The correct way to view outcome is to think of two Bell curves representing the distribution of outcomes of Ivy graduates and t200 graduates. It is without question that the Ivy Bell curve has a mean that is higher than that of the t200 Bell curve. Both Bell curves have tails representing good and bad outliers (Ivy grads driving Uber/stocking shelves, Ivy grads becoming prominent techies/politicians, t200 grads doing the same). Both Bell curves overlap so you see Ivy and t200 grads working the same role in the same office, creating the misleading impression that the outcomes are similar. What most "local observations" fail to capture is the fact that the Ivy Bell curve is to the right of the t200 Bell curve, suggesting that for any given percentile, Ivy grads in that percentile have better outcomes than those from t200.

The real question is whether someone who has the qualities to be accepted to an Ivy but chooses to go elsewhere does worse. I think majority of the reason the Ivy Bell curve may be to the right is because the student qualifications fall to the right as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has always been like this. Many ivy graduates struggle like anyone else to land their first job or work in their desired career field. This can leave such persons angry at the hard grind they chose versus going to a more balanced school where you can have some life outside the grind.

There is something to be said about going to a lower stress school and rocking it there versus the Ivies's souless grind.

Ivies are not a soulless grind

The soulless grind was BEFORE we got into college.

Anonymous wrote:I think having Ivy degree opens doors.

I've seen my friends with Ivy diplomas get offered job interviews they might not otherwise have gotten if they had a middling university diploma listed in their CV. So even if the jobs are average.... they are protected from job loss during economic downturns in ways that others might not be.

This is important!

How so? I am hearing the opposite. Many Ivy are too embarrassed to admit they are underemployed.

Anonymous wrote:I have met multiple ivy degree holders working jobs in high school education, middling research depts, "self employed" scrapping by. Sure there are some high profile ivy leaguers but in the end many end up in same jobs as middling t200 degree holders.

Maybe one of these Ivy league degree holders can explain the difference between an anecdote and data to you.

Anonymous wrote:I know several female Harvard grads who quit promising careers to be SAHMs or mommy tracked. My point is that they still have the same issues as the rest of us. A Harvard degree doesn’t shield you from that.

I have a HYP degree and I would agree. I had a special needs kid so I was a SAHM because that's what life required. I didn't plan that but life happens, even to us Ivy grads! I'm not superwoman.

I'm an Ivy grad. Not sure what you think we should be doing, but I'm in a low profile job but with high social impact that helps a lot of people. And I have an incredible amount of freedom as I do it. Is that average in your opinion? I could not care less.

Most of my classmates would probably be ordinary in your view, but highly successful in general. Doctors, lawyers, creative types, authors, professors, etc. Some are in elected office from local to very high up.

There are quite a few bold names both from my class year and from my school that I read about in the papers. Is that just "average"?

I remember going to an info session about consulting my senior year of college with a friend. We walked out during a break in the middle. We thought the idea of flying around a bunch of people our age to "solve hard problems" for industries we knew nothing about because we were the "best and brightest" was a bunch of BS.

Are we the most successful? Noooooo! That friend was a missionary for a few years, then I think she became a stay at home mom for a while, then unfortunately we fell out of touch. I work in public lands, where nobody gets rich. But I don't think we were *wrong* either.

To have big success you need more than smarts and pedigree. You also need ambition, discipline, and perseverance. Better schools try to admit students with the latter, as judged by their essays and ECs, but sometimes they get it wrong. Not everyone is or wants to be a Type A personality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to move on from your jealousy OP. My kid went to Princeton and graduated with an English Degree. Millionaire by age 30.

She wasn’t a millionaire because she got an English degree from Princeton unless she wrote a bestseller.

It’s so American (and gross) to think that having money is an accomplishment in and of itself.

She could have made that money selling her body, or drugs, or trafficking kids. Are we supposed to be impressed?

As Americans we pay our bills. It is gross to suggest that English majors are selling their body, trafficking kids and selling drugs.

My English major niece works for Big Tech and stays steadily employed.

Anonymous wrote:I would like to ban the term "middling".

Commercial house painter, soldier, administrative assistant. All are Ivy grads that I know. The first two own their own homes.

I know a guy who was an English major at an Ivy. He works as a commercial house painter out west. The high end clients almost always talk down to him. Little do they know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking at outcomes isn’t the right prism it’s what opportunities were available to them out of college. Some people may choose to work for the government, become a professor/researcher, or work as a teacher while they write their book. It’s whether you’re getting to do what you want that matters not meeting someone else’s definition of success.

Does any 18 year old know what they want to do? If so they didn’t have enough experience to see many paths. Your argument doesn’t make sense unless you only look in hindsight with 20/20 vision

Thanks for making my point. If you don’t know at 18 then having somewhere that gives you the widest range of opportunities is the best option.