Poor people might purchase a Nissan over a BMW but that doesn’t say anything about quality. It just means that cost conscious buyers want to save money.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

The original thread was comparing in state Berkeley with HYP. This is a legitimate comparison, and I think kids may choose one or the other depending on major, family finances etc.

Cornell is a close contender for engineering and Penn is better for business, but I’d choose in state Berkeley over Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, and Yale for STEM. Most people would choose Harvard and Princeton over Berkeley, but they all are good options and there no wrong answer. It boils down to affordability and fit.

It’s a little silly to put UVA and Virginia Tech on the same level with Berkeley.

It’s a little silly to make this about in-state and then disparage UVA. By your criterion, UVA in-state over Berkeley. But we don’t really care about cost conscious folks or your wallet: Berkeley undergrad is in no way comparable to the schools you mentioned — for most applicants. What it is comparable to is UVA.

oos UVA vs. oos Berkeley, most would go with UVA and it’s far superior undergraduate experience…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

The original thread was comparing in state Berkeley with HYP. This is a legitimate comparison, and I think kids may choose one or the other depending on major, family finances etc.

Cornell is a close contender for engineering and Penn is better for business, but I’d choose in state Berkeley over Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, and Yale for STEM. Most people would choose Harvard and Princeton over Berkeley, but they all are good options and there no wrong answer. It boils down to affordability and fit.

It’s a little silly to put UVA and Virginia Tech on the same level with Berkeley.

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Anonymous wrote:The 2024 UC undergrad experience survey for Berkeley had 88 percent reporting being satisfied with the overall academic experience, 82 percent being satisfied with the overall social experience, and 90 percent agreeing that the university had a strong commitment to undergraduate education. But definitely continue to listen to the infinite bullshit being spewed here instead.

Classic survey example of kids with limited experience who don’t know any better. I feel sorry for them.

Classic DCUM example of belief perseverance. I feel sorry for you.

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Anonymous wrote:On the east coast, Berkeley is viewed the same as Michigan or Virginia. Decent enough but not worth opening a bottle of champagne.

+1 the undergrad at Virginia is probably much better since it isn’t so over-enrolled

+2 UVA is miles ahead of Berkeley for undergrad

I would consider it delusional to compare undergrad at Berkeley to HYP. Comparing it to Michigan and Virginia is more reasonable, and even then Berkeley loses for the reasons listed by others here.

+1

Anonymous wrote:The 2024 UC undergrad experience survey for Berkeley had 88 percent reporting being satisfied with the overall academic experience, 82 percent being satisfied with the overall social experience, and 90 percent agreeing that the university had a strong commitment to undergraduate education. But definitely continue to listen to the infinite bullshit being spewed here instead.

Classic survey example of kids with limited experience who don’t know any better. I feel sorry for them.

Anonymous wrote:Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

“Wow” is not what comes to mind when I hear of a top student attending Berkeley oos.

“How” is the word that comes to mind. “How” could this process have been approached differently to get a better outcome?

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t confuse being competitive due to a lot of in state residents wanting a tuition discount, with actually providing a good product. This school is getting the bargain shoppers.

+1 you get what you pay for

For most people, HYP is cheaper than UCB.

For some OOS people in the donut hole-ish range it might be, especially if they are full pay at UCB but get some aid at HYP. But not for most. College Navigator has the data on this.

Average net price:

Yale: $26,044
Princeton: $19,811
Harvard: $17,900
UCB: $16,997

Average net price for those making $110,001 and more:

Harvard: $53,571
Yale: $49,347
Princeton: $39,943
UCB: $35,154

The above are for people who received grants, scholarships, or aid, but we know the sticker price is also less at UCB than the others, so if you are full pay it is cheaper at UCB too. Which is a good thing, unlike those silly PPs who think lower cost is somehow indicative of low quality.

Berkeley definitely has a wow factor but HYP have a bit more wow factor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t confuse being competitive due to a lot of in state residents wanting a tuition discount, with actually providing a good product. This school is getting the bargain shoppers.

+1 you get what you pay for

For most people, HYP is cheaper than UCB.

But HYP is probably paying more per student. They have huge endowments for financial aid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t confuse being competitive due to a lot of in state residents wanting a tuition discount, with actually providing a good product. This school is getting the bargain shoppers.

+1 you get what you pay for

For most people, HYP is cheaper than UCB.

Anonymous wrote:Don’t confuse being competitive due to a lot of in state residents wanting a tuition discount, with actually providing a good product. This school is getting the bargain shoppers.

+1 you get what you pay for

I did my graduate work at Berkeley and an undergrad at Harvard.

Both schools have strong students and lots of Nobel laureates. Both schools are very attractive to top scholars, and by poaching established academics, you tend to get strong lecturers. Both use the teaching model of having professors lecture and grad students teach labs and discussion sections.

Berkeley OOS isn't that much cheaper than an Ivy. The main reason for this is the cost of housing. The difficulties with housing are a major reason to opt for HYP. If your kid has to cram into an off campus apartment, make all of their meals, and take a complicated transit route to school, it can be a major distraction. The difficulty in getting courses, or any other resources, can be substantial. The Nobel laureates at both places have office hours, but the ones at Berkeley have a line outside their offices.

However, Berkeley has the weather (which is a major draw for the top scholars). It also has the openness, lack of conformity, and motivation levels that create innovation. Boston and (pre-Trump) DC are also agglomerations of well educated people that make things happen. Berkeley, however, is probably the most "what the heck, let's give it a try" sort of place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, at least for STEM, Cal is far ahead.

False. Most classes there aren’t even taught by real professors. Average student quality is also much lower. And people would assume you were an ivy/MIT/Stanford reject.

This is completely wrong, "real professors" teach almost all the STEM classes, unlike at some schools where it is acceptable to have grad students do it. Discussion sections may be grad TAs.

Still, it is a state school and resources are more limited. HYP for sure is a better option unless you are going for the in-state price. It's a great value for California students.

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Anonymous wrote:I’d take any of the ivies over Berkeley

Like Dartmouth, Brown and Cornell over in state Berkeley for stem? Yeah, no way.

Definitely yes. Those ivy schools are miles ahead of Berkeley in prestige. And prestige exists for a (good) reason.

Do you always use the word prestige in every sentence?

Not true, a Berkeley stem degree caries more weight. Yale, Dartmouth and Cornell are in the middle of nowhere. Berkeley is close to Silicon Valley, can get research opportunities at Lawrence Berkeley up the hill etc. Sure the classes are large and harder to get in, less hand holding. If you can’t handle that Berkeley is not a good fit and look elsewhere.

The truth is Berkeley is full of lottery winners who are trash students. They’re definitely not a good fit for Berkeley but they got in regardless. The days when Berkeley cs students ride the Silicon Valley waves will be long gone.

Just because Berkeley is test optional it doesn’t mean it’s a lottery, they still select the top students because they’ll look at AP exams, dual enrollment, grades, extracurriculars, which are all correlated with SAT scores.

I am a CA resident and while it’s too early I’d definitely think carefully between Berkeley vs Ivy if my kid got in. I already have more than the ivy tuition covered in a 529 account, so it’s not only the cost but also top students here take dual enrollment classes worth one year of college credits, so that opens the opportunity to get a BS and master degree in four years. I’d pass Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, and Yale in favor of Berkeley or UCLA any time. Nobody here cares about UVA.

Not sure if you can the difference between test optional and test blind.

Meant test blind, the point still stands.

Yeah, but that's a pretty big point. Berkeley won't even look at a 1600 or 36. At least with the test optional schools, there's an opportunity for smart kids to distinguish themselves by submitting scores. I think somewhere during Covid and BLM and all that noise, the UCs really embraced that colleges' primary purpose should be social mobility. And that changes things. There is a lot of mediocrity at Berkeley and admissions feels very random today. And the fact that you can use APs to graduate from Berkeley in a soft major in a couple of years further diminishes the experience and the brand. I don't think HYP are great either for undergrad, but for different reasons. Fortunately, there are more than four schools in America, and people can make their choices.

I agree test blind is wrong, but that doesn’t mean Berkeley is all of a sudden a lottery of undeserving students. I bet the students chosen in the test blind process have high standardized scores even if not considered.

Also, a test score is just a data point, not the absolute best method to select students. It didn’t change dramatically the student profile.

They absolutely do, the SCOIR data at our school shows a very high correlation between SAT score and UCB admission.

UCB is now openly using AP scores in admissions. They’re only SAT/ACT blind. And (no surprise) AP scores are correlated with SAT scores.