Anonymous wrote:Interestingly, most of the people I know who have lots of kids came from small families themselves. And most of the families I know that came from big families have only 1-2 kids. So neither sees their family of origin as the preference.

This might be true among secular types but a lot of religious people who have a lot of kids also grew up in large families. It’s hard not to replicate it if having large families and/or rejecting birth control is part of the religion.

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

That’s assuming there’s no extended family that helps out, no mothers helpers, and that all 4 kids do after school activities.

Assuming all four kids are neurotypical, by the time the youngest does after school activities and has actual homework (8?), the oldest kid or two should be able to do their own homework and manage their own bedtime, no?

I'm the PP. If I had two more kids right now, (let's call them 9 and 6 since my kids are 3 years apart) they'd either be stuck home all the time with a grandparent or "mother's helper" or being drug to one of their two sibling's activities. Either way, its not remotely the experience my older two children had at those ages. Seems pretty unfair, but large families aren't concerned with individual attention, or actual parents caring for children.

What a gross thing to say.

What's "gross" about it? Are you 9? It's not logistically or mathematically possible for parents of 4 kids to parent as much as a parent of two kids or 1 kid. It's just not. And rather than admitting they are fine with this arrangement, parents in big families argue their kids aren't short changed at all. I can't believe these families are getting babysitters 3-4 nights a week so that the younger kids don't have to be schlepped around. And even if they are, that's a lot of time to spend with a babysitter when you've already spent the entire day away from your parents at school. We had kids because we actually wanted to parent them ourselves.

DP. If I'm tracking, you have two kids, right? I really hope you lose your dichotomous thinking before life throws a curveball your way. You say it is not "logistically or mathematically possible" for 2 parents to successfully parent 4 children. So under your logic, it would not be "logistically or mathematically" possible for 1 parent to successfully parent 2 children, right?

So what will you do if your spouse (heaven forbid) dies? Put your kids up for adoption so they can have 2 parents?

I know, I know. You'll say in the case of the former, the parents chose to have four kids. The latter scenario is involuntary. But the end result would be the same, no? 1 parent for 2 kids...

DP. I also hope she’s not using *gasp* aftercare or regular date night sitters or going to the gym after work or having any sort of hobby. Because her kids are already away from her during the day and she otherwise would not be truly parenting them.

Joke all you want but there are many many times that both of my kids need something at the same exact time - homework help, a ride, a shoulder to cry on, whatever, and if there were more of them, there would be less attention to go around per kid. You can keep denying it, but it’s just basic math. Obviously you are okay with each kid having less individual attention. To each his own.

Guess what. I’m an only child. I had 2 parents (including a SAHM) to give me all the attention I wanted. And … I chose not to replicate that. I was always jealous of friends with big families. I’m not saying having an only or 2 kids is bad, there are trade offs to everything. But my kids live a really fun life with siblings and siblings’ friends around. I just don’t think that parental attention is the be all end all of parenting that you want to convince yourself it is. There are also benefits to sibling relationships and learning to wait your turn. I’ll add that my kids are way more responsible with managing their stuff and cleaning up after themselves than smaller families I’ve seen where the parents do everything for them. They certainly are much more independent than I was at their age as an only.

+1. I have 2 and for various reasons not sure if we’ll have more, but I agree with this.

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

That’s assuming there’s no extended family that helps out, no mothers helpers, and that all 4 kids do after school activities.

Assuming all four kids are neurotypical, by the time the youngest does after school activities and has actual homework (8?), the oldest kid or two should be able to do their own homework and manage their own bedtime, no?

I'm the PP. If I had two more kids right now, (let's call them 9 and 6 since my kids are 3 years apart) they'd either be stuck home all the time with a grandparent or "mother's helper" or being drug to one of their two sibling's activities. Either way, its not remotely the experience my older two children had at those ages. Seems pretty unfair, but large families aren't concerned with individual attention, or actual parents caring for children.

What a gross thing to say.

What's "gross" about it? Are you 9? It's not logistically or mathematically possible for parents of 4 kids to parent as much as a parent of two kids or 1 kid. It's just not. And rather than admitting they are fine with this arrangement, parents in big families argue their kids aren't short changed at all. I can't believe these families are getting babysitters 3-4 nights a week so that the younger kids don't have to be schlepped around. And even if they are, that's a lot of time to spend with a babysitter when you've already spent the entire day away from your parents at school. We had kids because we actually wanted to parent them ourselves.

DP. If I'm tracking, you have two kids, right? I really hope you lose your dichotomous thinking before life throws a curveball your way. You say it is not "logistically or mathematically possible" for 2 parents to successfully parent 4 children. So under your logic, it would not be "logistically or mathematically" possible for 1 parent to successfully parent 2 children, right?

So what will you do if your spouse (heaven forbid) dies? Put your kids up for adoption so they can have 2 parents?

I know, I know. You'll say in the case of the former, the parents chose to have four kids. The latter scenario is involuntary. But the end result would be the same, no? 1 parent for 2 kids...

DP. I also hope she’s not using *gasp* aftercare or regular date night sitters or going to the gym after work or having any sort of hobby. Because her kids are already away from her during the day and she otherwise would not be truly parenting them.

Joke all you want but there are many many times that both of my kids need something at the same exact time - homework help, a ride, a shoulder to cry on, whatever, and if there were more of them, there would be less attention to go around per kid. You can keep denying it, but it’s just basic math. Obviously you are okay with each kid having less individual attention. To each his own.

Guess what. I’m an only child. I had 2 parents (including a SAHM) to give me all the attention I wanted. And … I chose not to replicate that. I was always jealous of friends with big families. I’m not saying having an only or 2 kids is bad, there are trade offs to everything. But my kids live a really fun life with siblings and siblings’ friends around. I just don’t think that parental attention is the be all end all of parenting that you want to convince yourself it is. There are also benefits to sibling relationships and learning to wait your turn. I’ll add that my kids are way more responsible with managing their stuff and cleaning up after themselves than smaller families I’ve seen where the parents do everything for them. They certainly are much more independent than I was at their age as an only.

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

I imagine there’s a lot of carpooling and siblings getting toted to practices. That is already how we manage 3 kids with full time jobs. I think if I didn’t work I’d have a bigger network of other moms to trade off with. Anecdotally I know some SAHMs of 3 or 4 and they seem to not mind having an extra kid in tow and will then trade off. Especially the military moms. It’s like an entire village just coordinating getting kids places or hosting a sibling for drop off. I think if I didn’t work/wanted a 4th I’d just lean into like this.

Most parents mind when you take advantage of them. They are just too polite to say anything.

I’m sorry that you think trading off with other parents is “taking advantage.” Do you not have a group of mom friends you can swap rides with and list as each other’s emergency contacts? Friends you take meals too when they’ve had a baby or an illness and vice versa? So many people on this board complain about not having friends here but then think moms helping each other out is taking advantage of someone.

Anonymous wrote:I think many people who have four kids really enjoy having kids, so it doesn’t seem overwhelming too them necessarily.

Honestly this is it. Somehow as a parent of 2 who can barely handle 2 I keep making friends who have 4. They enjoy parenting more, full stop. I genuinely find it inspiring. I know all folks are not the same, but this is a big factor most of the time, if we are talking a functional family.

Interestingly, most of the people I know who have lots of kids came from small families themselves. And most of the families I know that came from big families have only 1-2 kids. So neither sees their family of origin as the preference.

My DH is the oldest of 4. He and the next oldest (a sister) did A LOT of helping out with the younger two, babysitting, etc. He, and particularly his sister, have memories of being annoyed by it at times. But, interestingly, he and his sister are much more successful (in careers and relationships) than the younger two (another boy and girl) -- so maybe something about that experience was good for them in the long run. As adults, they are all also so close, and holidays and other family gatherings are just THE BEST!

That being said, we are happy and done with our two, ha!!

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

That’s assuming there’s no extended family that helps out, no mothers helpers, and that all 4 kids do after school activities.

Assuming all four kids are neurotypical, by the time the youngest does after school activities and has actual homework (8?), the oldest kid or two should be able to do their own homework and manage their own bedtime, no?

I'm the PP. If I had two more kids right now, (let's call them 9 and 6 since my kids are 3 years apart) they'd either be stuck home all the time with a grandparent or "mother's helper" or being drug to one of their two sibling's activities. Either way, its not remotely the experience my older two children had at those ages. Seems pretty unfair, but large families aren't concerned with individual attention, or actual parents caring for children.

I’m a 4th child who was *dragged* to school pickups and activities. I did homework. Was it somewhat annoying to go food shopping with my mom after school while we waited for my siblings to be dismissed? Maybe? But if that was the worst thing about my childhood I’ll take it.

Also, my husband is 1 of 2. His parents were hyper focused on him and his sister in a way that was suffocating. And they were super coddled. Honestly I think another child would have helped diffuse the dynamic there more. And he’s not close with his only sibling to boot.

I am one of 4 children. My mother LOVED the baby stage but as a SAHM you get to enjoy it less and less the more children/responsibilities you have and she got pretty burnt out by the lack of sleep with the 4th (I was the oldest and can remember it).

Unfortunately one of my siblings ended up having very needy mental health issues after 4 of us were already here. Based on that and other life experiences it just feels like a roll of the dice every time we have another child and if we have two happy and healthy children I will feel exceedingly blessed. Also I feel awful and extremely anxious during my pregnancies/postpartum and while it might seem like a short time in the grand scheme of things, it does end up being over a year before I feel relatively normal each time and that adds up.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of an only child and for me, one child is the limit of what I can do given I WOH. I love the bond I have with my child. I love the smile she gets on her face when we snuggle in bed. I love being able to focus on her. My DH is very loving and involved, but we are both low energy. If I didn't suffer from fertility issues we would probably have considered having another, but in some ways I think it is fate that I physically can't.

At the same time, it's true that with two parents and one child, we're often not super efficient parents. I do catch myself trying to do too much for her. I recently had to solo parent for a few days and it was eye opening how I realized that in some ways it was easier because it helped me focus on what really needed to be done. And how much DH and I sometimes get in the way of one another.

So I don't think it's totally accurate that 4 children get half as much parenting as 2 children. I think there are efficiencies with multiple children. But it's also very common for it to be outsourced to the eldest child. My mother is the oldest of 7 and she definitely feels her parents didn't really parent her youngest siblings, they just had their oldest children do it. I am one of 2 and I don't think my mom wishes she had more.

Adding that if we had had a second, it's highly unlikely we would have been able to intervene so early in a behavioral issue DD had that can easily be treated at a young age but becomes very ingrained pretty quickly if you don't act fast.

I'm a parent of an only child and for me, one child is the limit of what I can do given I WOH. I love the bond I have with my child. I love the smile she gets on her face when we snuggle in bed. I love being able to focus on her. My DH is very loving and involved, but we are both low energy. If I didn't suffer from fertility issues we would probably have considered having another, but in some ways I think it is fate that I physically can't.

At the same time, it's true that with two parents and one child, we're often not super efficient parents. I do catch myself trying to do too much for her. I recently had to solo parent for a few days and it was eye opening how I realized that in some ways it was easier because it helped me focus on what really needed to be done. And how much DH and I sometimes get in the way of one another.

So I don't think it's totally accurate that 4 children get half as much parenting as 2 children. I think there are efficiencies with multiple children. But it's also very common for it to be outsourced to the eldest child. My mother is the oldest of 7 and she definitely feels her parents didn't really parent her youngest siblings, they just had their oldest children do it. I am one of 2 and I don't think my mom wishes she had more.

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

That’s assuming there’s no extended family that helps out, no mothers helpers, and that all 4 kids do after school activities.

Assuming all four kids are neurotypical, by the time the youngest does after school activities and has actual homework (8?), the oldest kid or two should be able to do their own homework and manage their own bedtime, no?

I'm the PP. If I had two more kids right now, (let's call them 9 and 6 since my kids are 3 years apart) they'd either be stuck home all the time with a grandparent or "mother's helper" or being drug to one of their two sibling's activities. Either way, its not remotely the experience my older two children had at those ages. Seems pretty unfair, but large families aren't concerned with individual attention, or actual parents caring for children.

What a gross thing to say.

What's "gross" about it? Are you 9? It's not logistically or mathematically possible for parents of 4 kids to parent as much as a parent of two kids or 1 kid. It's just not. And rather than admitting they are fine with this arrangement, parents in big families argue their kids aren't short changed at all. I can't believe these families are getting babysitters 3-4 nights a week so that the younger kids don't have to be schlepped around. And even if they are, that's a lot of time to spend with a babysitter when you've already spent the entire day away from your parents at school. We had kids because we actually wanted to parent them ourselves.

DP. If I'm tracking, you have two kids, right? I really hope you lose your dichotomous thinking before life throws a curveball your way. You say it is not "logistically or mathematically possible" for 2 parents to successfully parent 4 children. So under your logic, it would not be "logistically or mathematically" possible for 1 parent to successfully parent 2 children, right?

So what will you do if your spouse (heaven forbid) dies? Put your kids up for adoption so they can have 2 parents?

I know, I know. You'll say in the case of the former, the parents chose to have four kids. The latter scenario is involuntary. But the end result would be the same, no? 1 parent for 2 kids...

DP. I also hope she’s not using *gasp* aftercare or regular date night sitters or going to the gym after work or having any sort of hobby. Because her kids are already away from her during the day and she otherwise would not be truly parenting them.

Joke all you want but there are many many times that both of my kids need something at the same exact time - homework help, a ride, a shoulder to cry on, whatever, and if there were more of them, there would be less attention to go around per kid. You can keep denying it, but it’s just basic math. Obviously you are okay with each kid having less individual attention. To each his own.

How neglectful of you to have 2 children!

Your poor first child is not getting all the attention they deserve because you were too self centered to stop at 1 child.

I know! I actually do feel badly for each of my kids sometimes when they are being short-changed and why I did not have any more!

Oh mamacita. You are the SAHM with two kids in this thread? I can tell you are a great mother and are trying to give your two kids all the attention you can. I'm just going to take a shot in the dark here. I think somewhere along the way in your parenting journey, you learned that individual, one on one attention = love and care, and that anytime you are not giving your children individual, one on one attention, they are not thriving. I think this had led you to some insecurities in your own parenting, and I think you are coping with those insecurities by fixating on parents with 3+ kids. Essentially, by convincing yourself that no parent of 3+ kids can meet their children's needs, you become more confident and secure that you are meeting your own children's needs since there are only 2 of them.

I could be totally off base. But I do wonder why you decided to participate in this thread, when you have absolutely no experience raising 3, let alone 4, kids. And you seem completely unwilling to believe the parents on here (the actual parents of 3 and 4 kids) telling you that their kids are cared for and loved? I wonder if you might consider talking to someone. Your kids are at wonderful ages and I hope you can enjoy them, instead of being so concerned about meeting their every need at every second.

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

That’s assuming there’s no extended family that helps out, no mothers helpers, and that all 4 kids do after school activities.

Assuming all four kids are neurotypical, by the time the youngest does after school activities and has actual homework (8?), the oldest kid or two should be able to do their own homework and manage their own bedtime, no?

I'm the PP. If I had two more kids right now, (let's call them 9 and 6 since my kids are 3 years apart) they'd either be stuck home all the time with a grandparent or "mother's helper" or being drug to one of their two sibling's activities. Either way, its not remotely the experience my older two children had at those ages. Seems pretty unfair, but large families aren't concerned with individual attention, or actual parents caring for children.

What a gross thing to say.

What's "gross" about it? Are you 9? It's not logistically or mathematically possible for parents of 4 kids to parent as much as a parent of two kids or 1 kid. It's just not. And rather than admitting they are fine with this arrangement, parents in big families argue their kids aren't short changed at all. I can't believe these families are getting babysitters 3-4 nights a week so that the younger kids don't have to be schlepped around. And even if they are, that's a lot of time to spend with a babysitter when you've already spent the entire day away from your parents at school. We had kids because we actually wanted to parent them ourselves.

DP. If I'm tracking, you have two kids, right? I really hope you lose your dichotomous thinking before life throws a curveball your way. You say it is not "logistically or mathematically possible" for 2 parents to successfully parent 4 children. So under your logic, it would not be "logistically or mathematically" possible for 1 parent to successfully parent 2 children, right?

So what will you do if your spouse (heaven forbid) dies? Put your kids up for adoption so they can have 2 parents?

I know, I know. You'll say in the case of the former, the parents chose to have four kids. The latter scenario is involuntary. But the end result would be the same, no? 1 parent for 2 kids...

DP. I also hope she’s not using *gasp* aftercare or regular date night sitters or going to the gym after work or having any sort of hobby. Because her kids are already away from her during the day and she otherwise would not be truly parenting them.

Joke all you want but there are many many times that both of my kids need something at the same exact time - homework help, a ride, a shoulder to cry on, whatever, and if there were more of them, there would be less attention to go around per kid. You can keep denying it, but it’s just basic math. Obviously you are okay with each kid having less individual attention. To each his own.

How neglectful of you to have 2 children!

Your poor first child is not getting all the attention they deserve because you were too self centered to stop at 1 child.

I know! I actually do feel badly for each of my kids sometimes when they are being short-changed and why I did not have any more!

This comes down so much the individual and I see a thread that I can really relate to. I bought it having a second child and spent many painful hours wondering what was “wrong” with me, and why I was so tapped out at one. It’s really incredible. There’s a special kind of heartache that can come when we internalize the “shoulds” of life and then can’t or don’t want to execute on them. I spent a lot of time and sometimes still feel like there’s something wrong with me that I stopped at one kid. It’s great for our family, but will he be alone at the end?

This is relevant for any kind of family planning though. What “should” your family look like and then whether or not that some thing anyone wants. I find it surprising that we don’t articulate this potential dissidence more.

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Anonymous wrote:I think once you get to the 4th kid you tend to have a parent who is not working or only working very part time. So in that regard there is always a dedicated parent whose life is very kid-centered. I have 3 and my career is my 4th kid. I think one more kid would be the tipping point. I’m also still hanging on to keeping my home fairly near and tidy/organized. Whereas I think once you hit 4 + you’re the type of family that embraces the chaos so to speak. (Unless you’re like a Mormon blogger type with family to help you so you can maintain that Pinterest home).

Once you have 4 kids in after school activities, it really doesn’t matter that one parent is home. There are still only 2 adults to manage driving/dinner/homework/bedtime.

Signed,
A SAHM of two with not much evening bandwidth to spare.

That’s assuming there’s no extended family that helps out, no mothers helpers, and that all 4 kids do after school activities.

Assuming all four kids are neurotypical, by the time the youngest does after school activities and has actual homework (8?), the oldest kid or two should be able to do their own homework and manage their own bedtime, no?

I'm the PP. If I had two more kids right now, (let's call them 9 and 6 since my kids are 3 years apart) they'd either be stuck home all the time with a grandparent or "mother's helper" or being drug to one of their two sibling's activities. Either way, its not remotely the experience my older two children had at those ages. Seems pretty unfair, but large families aren't concerned with individual attention, or actual parents caring for children.

What a gross thing to say.

What's "gross" about it? Are you 9? It's not logistically or mathematically possible for parents of 4 kids to parent as much as a parent of two kids or 1 kid. It's just not. And rather than admitting they are fine with this arrangement, parents in big families argue their kids aren't short changed at all. I can't believe these families are getting babysitters 3-4 nights a week so that the younger kids don't have to be schlepped around. And even if they are, that's a lot of time to spend with a babysitter when you've already spent the entire day away from your parents at school. We had kids because we actually wanted to parent them ourselves.

DP. If I'm tracking, you have two kids, right? I really hope you lose your dichotomous thinking before life throws a curveball your way. You say it is not "logistically or mathematically possible" for 2 parents to successfully parent 4 children. So under your logic, it would not be "logistically or mathematically" possible for 1 parent to successfully parent 2 children, right?

So what will you do if your spouse (heaven forbid) dies? Put your kids up for adoption so they can have 2 parents?

I know, I know. You'll say in the case of the former, the parents chose to have four kids. The latter scenario is involuntary. But the end result would be the same, no? 1 parent for 2 kids...

DP. I also hope she’s not using *gasp* aftercare or regular date night sitters or going to the gym after work or having any sort of hobby. Because her kids are already away from her during the day and she otherwise would not be truly parenting them.

Joke all you want but there are many many times that both of my kids need something at the same exact time - homework help, a ride, a shoulder to cry on, whatever, and if there were more of them, there would be less attention to go around per kid. You can keep denying it, but it’s just basic math. Obviously you are okay with each kid having less individual attention. To each his own.

How neglectful of you to have 2 children!

Your poor first child is not getting all the attention they deserve because you were too self centered to stop at 1 child.