Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here, its very very possible that because of her history I am having a harder time seeing "normal teen". I am going to be re-reading the Untangled book, which was really helpful. I was shocked to see so many recognizable things because at the time they were happening the context was different.

So, I guess Ive not ever had a chance to see her "normal" teen behavior because while she became a teen she was depressed to the point of thinking she wont make it to her 20's because she will commit suicide.

I give her a lot of space and I don't sweat the small stuff. But when SHE sweats the small stuff its like omg it happening again.

There ya go! I found it helpful to wait until things had calmed down with my DD, and then say to her "I want to talk to you really quickly about before, with the dishwasher. We don't need to dwell on it, but do you think it was reasonable for me to think you'd be emptying the dishwasher since you said you wanted that chore and then started doing it? And why I asked you when you didn't do it?" and then she could respond, "But couldn't you see I'd gotten in a fight with my friend and was studying for a test with my hardest teacher and couldn't worry about emptying a dishwasher when I had important things going on?" Then I could see her perspective. And I could say "So during times of high stress you want to be exempt from your chores, is that it?" And we could discuss if that was reasonable. But it was really important to keep those talks to 2-3 minutes. No more.

OP here, we think so much the same! I have done exactly this, and in fact that is how I handled it. Its just I didn't get that response this time.

Of course, who is self reflective while they are freaking out? Sometimes she just freaks out way too fast, there is no way to mitigate. Its over before the 2-3 minutes even starts.

Bothersome today was the reference to self harm. She will say "Im so mad I feel like hurting myself but Im staying in my room to calm down so I wont do that". Not the best thing to say and most certainly not the best thing to hear.

What makes it worse is when its preceded by "You are insane. You make me feel terrible about myself. You are bad for my mental health".

So, yeah. Patience required, I guess. Baby steps.

Anonymous wrote:OP here, its very very possible that because of her history I am having a harder time seeing "normal teen". I am going to be re-reading the Untangled book, which was really helpful. I was shocked to see so many recognizable things because at the time they were happening the context was different.

So, I guess Ive not ever had a chance to see her "normal" teen behavior because while she became a teen she was depressed to the point of thinking she wont make it to her 20's because she will commit suicide.

I give her a lot of space and I don't sweat the small stuff. But when SHE sweats the small stuff its like omg it happening again.

There ya go! I found it helpful to wait until things had calmed down with my DD, and then say to her "I want to talk to you really quickly about before, with the dishwasher. We don't need to dwell on it, but do you think it was reasonable for me to think you'd be emptying the dishwasher since you said you wanted that chore and then started doing it? And why I asked you when you didn't do it?" and then she could respond, "But couldn't you see I'd gotten in a fight with my friend and was studying for a test with my hardest teacher and couldn't worry about emptying a dishwasher when I had important things going on?" Then I could see her perspective. And I could say "So during times of high stress you want to be exempt from your chores, is that it?" And we could discuss if that was reasonable. But it was really important to keep those talks to 2-3 minutes. No more.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my kid who is like this is younger, but has lots of the same patterns.

I'd suggest that rather than cutting her slack re: the chores she agreed to in the interest of harmony, you work to implement slightly more structure and accountability.

For my kid, she gets way up in her own head after she's done the chore a few times and then stops doing it and, although she is not generally able to recognize this, the lashing out at me is basically her being mad at herself that she didn't follow through. And the longer that "limbo" period is, the madder she is at herself (and at me, because she thinks I'm just as mad at her as she is at herself). Anyway, I've found that applying some sort of accountability mechanism right away does not allow for those negative and critical thoughts to fester and can actually start to create a positive reinforcement cycle. Just a thought.

OP here, definitely agree with your analysis here. SPOT ON.

I have tried to frame accountability in terms of real life blame free consequences, such as: if A doesn't get done then B cant happen because it depends on A. So, if you don't pick your clothes up off the floor, then you wont be able to determine whats clean or dirty and then you end up with more backed up laundry. So then its a choice as to whether or not you want clean clothes. She started on her own to do her own laundry, which is great. So that's why I built on that one.

Ok. I wrote the above. So for your dishwasher example, instead of letting it slide when she doesn't do it one morning, ask her to take care of it when she comes home from school (and pile dirty dishes in the sink in the meantime). And then maybe set up a weekly "family check-in" where you both have a chance to share feedback about how things are going, what is working and not, etc - but without any specific emotion attached to the conversation.

My read is that in your dishwasher example, your kid knew she asked for a chore and stopped doing it - so when she asked you again about ways to help out, she was basically "picking at the scab" re: her feelings about failing to follow through the first time. And when you brought up what she perceived as her failure but what you perceived was just a normal chores conversation, it became the vehicle for all her feelings about it to fly out.

Anonymous wrote:OP, my kid who is like this is younger, but has lots of the same patterns.

I'd suggest that rather than cutting her slack re: the chores she agreed to in the interest of harmony, you work to implement slightly more structure and accountability.

For my kid, she gets way up in her own head after she's done the chore a few times and then stops doing it and, although she is not generally able to recognize this, the lashing out at me is basically her being mad at herself that she didn't follow through. And the longer that "limbo" period is, the madder she is at herself (and at me, because she thinks I'm just as mad at her as she is at herself). Anyway, I've found that applying some sort of accountability mechanism right away does not allow for those negative and critical thoughts to fester and can actually start to create a positive reinforcement cycle. Just a thought.

OP here, definitely agree with your analysis here. SPOT ON.

I have tried to frame accountability in terms of real life blame free consequences, such as: if A doesn't get done then B cant happen because it depends on A. So, if you don't pick your clothes up off the floor, then you wont be able to determine whats clean or dirty and then you end up with more backed up laundry. So then its a choice as to whether or not you want clean clothes. She started on her own to do her own laundry, which is great. So that's why I built on that one.

OP here, its very very possible that because of her history I am having a harder time seeing "normal teen". I am going to be re-reading the Untangled book, which was really helpful. I was shocked to see so many recognizable things because at the time they were happening the context was different.

So, I guess Ive not ever had a chance to see her "normal" teen behavior because while she became a teen she was depressed to the point of thinking she wont make it to her 20's because she will commit suicide.

I give her a lot of space and I don't sweat the small stuff. But when SHE sweats the small stuff its like omg it happening again.

Anonymous wrote:OP, my kid who is like this is younger, but has lots of the same patterns.

I'd suggest that rather than cutting her slack re: the chores she agreed to in the interest of harmony, you work to implement slightly more structure and accountability.

For my kid, she gets way up in her own head after she's done the chore a few times and then stops doing it and, although she is not generally able to recognize this, the lashing out at me is basically her being mad at herself that she didn't follow through. And the longer that "limbo" period is, the madder she is at herself (and at me, because she thinks I'm just as mad at her as she is at herself). Anyway, I've found that applying some sort of accountability mechanism right away does not allow for those negative and critical thoughts to fester and can actually start to create a positive reinforcement cycle. Just a thought.

DP. Is this something they could do counseling together to achieve? Giving examples to a therapist, who can then map out appropriate responses by both parent and daughter, and establishing the accountability and structure in a way where OP is more comfortable that her daughter won't fall back into negative emotional behavior?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know, that part of her blaming you is normal. It's also normal to be mostly mature and then have burst of immaturity also.

I don't want to go so far as to say your DD is fine, because I'm not a psychologist AND don't know her. But therapy is not going to make her never have fights with you. She HAS to have fights with you sometimes to establish her independence from you as her own person.

OP here, I agree with the basics of what you are saying, and its not that I think we should never have fights.

But she also has a history of suicidal statements and self harm. So I have to take incidents a bit more seriously than maybe someone with no such history.

I am not seeing where and how these patterns are going to mature if they don't see the light of day.

I can definitely understand that you worry more because of her history. One of the things i noticed with one of my own daughters, was she thought it was a problem if she got the tiniest bit uncomfortable. I had to teach her to live in uncomfortable moments, that humans are meant to feel the full spectrum of emotions. And kids mature simply with the passage of time - their brain is literally not finished developing.

OP, my kid who is like this is younger, but has lots of the same patterns.

I'd suggest that rather than cutting her slack re: the chores she agreed to in the interest of harmony, you work to implement slightly more structure and accountability.

For my kid, she gets way up in her own head after she's done the chore a few times and then stops doing it and, although she is not generally able to recognize this, the lashing out at me is basically her being mad at herself that she didn't follow through. And the longer that "limbo" period is, the madder she is at herself (and at me, because she thinks I'm just as mad at her as she is at herself). Anyway, I've found that applying some sort of accountability mechanism right away does not allow for those negative and critical thoughts to fester and can actually start to create a positive reinforcement cycle. Just a thought.

I’m glad she’s doing better and I agree that what you describe sounds like normal teen nonsense. It’s understandable that it’s hard not to worry about it, though, given the backstory. Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:You know, that part of her blaming you is normal. It's also normal to be mostly mature and then have burst of immaturity also.

I don't want to go so far as to say your DD is fine, because I'm not a psychologist AND don't know her. But therapy is not going to make her never have fights with you. She HAS to have fights with you sometimes to establish her independence from you as her own person.

This was my thought as well. While we can't diagnose your DD, this honestly sounds like typical teen behaviors. Doing a chore twice and not doing it again, normal. Getting mad at you b/c you point it out, normal. Pockets of immaturity in a 15 year old? Normal. It also sounds like she's using things she's learned (e.g., "triggers", "boundaries", etc.) to play you.

As PP said, you are not going to be able to have everything wonderful between the two of you 100% of the time. That's not normal and not healthy. It's determining how far you can go and not fear for your DD's mental health. This is something you may benefit from therapy/counseling as well.

I guess the way I would say where she is now is: she is rebuilding from a pattern of depression and anxiety and while she does challenge her own thinking a lot, she is dysfunctional around the idea of SOME negative feelings.

No one has given her tools for dealing with the most difficult feelings because she refuses to address them in therapy. She will literally full stop if a topic is broached that is outside her comfort zone. But those are the landmines she will detonate on me.

Anonymous wrote:You know, that part of her blaming you is normal. It's also normal to be mostly mature and then have burst of immaturity also.

I don't want to go so far as to say your DD is fine, because I'm not a psychologist AND don't know her. But therapy is not going to make her never have fights with you. She HAS to have fights with you sometimes to establish her independence from you as her own person.

OP here, I agree with the basics of what you are saying, and its not that I think we should never have fights.

But she also has a history of suicidal statements and self harm. So I have to take incidents a bit more seriously than maybe someone with no such history.

I am not seeing where and how these patterns are going to mature if they don't see the light of day.

You know, that part of her blaming you is normal. It's also normal to be mostly mature and then have burst of immaturity also.

I don't want to go so far as to say your DD is fine, because I'm not a psychologist AND don't know her. But therapy is not going to make her never have fights with you. She HAS to have fights with you sometimes to establish her independence from you as her own person.

OP again, I should add that the reminder was not even remotely in an angry tone. I wasn't upset. I use the "Hey its ok" that she seems to interpret correctly 95% of the time.

I've posted here before about my depressed teen who has made a terrific turn around on medication after a year and a half of non working therapy. There really isnt a solution here except her finally getting serious about really working with a therapist and me FINDING such a therapist.

THe problem is her therapist left the practice abruptly and no one was available to replace. She got worse and eventually needed the meds, which thankfully worked very well, and it seemed like she made a lot of progress. Almost like she "caught up" with the therapy, but the therapy never challenged her ever. It was just nice talking about feelings, validating things, some of it was with me, some of it wasn't, as directed by the therapy etc.

THe issue NOW is there are pockets of undealt with feelings that have not progressed and these are like landmines that get detonated on (mostly) me.

One bad habit of hers is to blame me for how something I say makes her feel. BUT its not things I say that anyone would find problematic, its very normal things. Example: she says she wants to take on some tasks to help around the house. Great! Self directed willingness to help. But she wants me to tell her what to do, so I ask her to pick from a list. She picks emptying the dishwasher in the morning. Fine.

But then she does it once or twice and not again. I don't say anything because right now she is rebuilding and I take a wait and see. She brings up some time later that she wants to help, and I remind her she had decided to empty the dishwasher, and simply reminding her creates a big meltdown that what I said made her feel bad about herself. Something simple like that can lead to her messaging me and saying I am "bad for (her) mental health".

I don't feel like going into more examples, but the concerning pattern appears to be: "I feel bad about myself as a result of something YOU said so YOU direspected my boundaries. (She will use that term)

The irony is that our dynamic is very good 95% of the time. But when she loses it, she blames me too often. The offense is usually just something normal. She talks about "having triggers" but has zero insight on the fact that other people cant know all of her triggers.

How on earth can I send her into therapy to address her blaming problem (which has improved but when it explodes its pretty bad for everyone) which is based on faulty assumptions and patterns of thinking developed during a protracted bout of depression and anxiety?

Im concerned that despite being super mature at almost 15, she has pockets of very immature thinking that do not get challenged. No therapist is going to know about them unless they are aware of them, and SHE is not going to tell them.

Yes I have the book untangled and under pressure. Great books. I just don't have the therapist she needs and right now a lot of people are booked to the gills.