Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have seen their community (Chabad-Lubovitch) described online as Hasidic and ultra-orthodox, but their sect’s website also insists they are orthodox, not ultra-orthodox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m not Jewish but from where my husband’s family sits (unobservant Reform), they view it as ultra orthodox. He has the black hat, she wears a wig.

I have become very active in Chabad and can shed some first-hand light on this.

It is true that the Rabbi and his wife of my Chabad House are ultra-Orthodox(although they would not describe themselves that way: they'd just say they are Jewish). But I myself was raised conservative - and remain so - and most of the people who are involved with Chabad are as well. (Just about everyone drives to services, for example.) The Chabad Rabbi and wife never said or intimated anything that gives me even a hint of pressure that they would like me to be more religious. They are simply happy that I remain connected with Judaism - as well as all the others. I find them a warm, welcoming group with interesting classes, GREAT holiday parties, lots of lectures and social activities - you should see Chanukah week (pre-COVID): a big "to-do" every single night! - and meaningful sermons at services. I have learned SO much from this group, and made some really nice friends. Just about the only thing I don't like is the separation of men/women during services, but nothing is perfect.

The website of my local chapter says they make no discernment as to whether someone is Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform - and states that "a Jew is a Jew is a Jew."

(Also, just FYI, the reason I left my conservative synagogue and affiliated with this one instead has nothing to do with religion - it has to do with politics. The conservative and reform synagogues are becoming increasingly hostile to those who do not like liberal policies, and the last step was when a congregant yelled at my mother and me right in the "Kiddush Hall" for voting for Trump - and called us racists. Others at Chabad have told me the same thing - that they joined not because they want to be more religious, but they they want to stay connected to Judaism and feel unwelcome in their previous synagogues due to politics.)

If you voted for T i would yell at you and call you a racist too!

Anonymous wrote:“Just about the only thing I don't like is the separation of men/women during services, but nothing is perfect.”

This is OP. Um, this is kind of a biggie and tells me a lot.

NP. Yes, as a Conservative Jewish woman, separate seating is a deal breaker for me. I like to read Torah. I like my daughters to see women as Jewish leaders. My husband and I tried modern/open orthodox for a while before we had kids and we both found gendered seating to be distracting and alienating, especially on the high holidays when we like to have the comfort of family while davening. I've been to Orthodox shuls where the seating was side-by-side with a waist-high mechitza and where the women were up in the balcony. Regardless, the separation is obvious. In the balcony, the rabbi never once acknowledged that we were up there. And then there's counting in a minyan and if you want to talk about not feeling like a valued member of the community, "not counting" when someone needs to say kaddish is one of the worst feelings.

I also think that Chabad's statement that "a Jew is a Jew is a Jew" regardless of Reform, Conservative or Orthodox background (as described by PP) should have an asterisk next to it, because the small print is that "a Jew is a Jew" only as they define it by Orthodox standards. So you can be a Reform or Conservative Jew (through conversion, patrilineal descent, the child of a mother who converted, etc), and not actually be a Jew in the eyes of Chabad. They might still engage you and welcome you at their events, but if they know your personal background, you're not really a Jew to them. Other Orthodox groups obviously also only count Jews by their own Jewish standards, but they don't try to present themselves otherwise, so it doesn't bother me.

Back to the original question, I have a (female) cousin who became ultra Orthodox (not Chabad) as an adult and she really values her community.
1. She has felt supported at times of personal loss and celebrated when her family has marked simchas. I would say the same about my Conservative community.
2. She likes that her Jewish community and her neighbors are one-and-the-same, because they all have to live within walking distance of shul. I can see the appeal of that and it would be nice if we didn't have drive 20-30 minutes to a friend's house for Shabbat dinner. The distance doesn't stop us from hosting and being hosted regularly (pre-Covid), but it would be nice if the radius was closer.
3. She feels that the prescribed gender roles provide structure to her family life and that defined laws and learning for women provide a Jewish lens for her lived experience. I find it exclusionary and constraining, personally.

To continue, all the cool holiday parties in the world can’t erase that little detail.

Brother-in-law didn’t start out politically conservative, but this community has made him combatively so.

“Just about the only thing I don't like is the separation of men/women during services, but nothing is perfect.”

This is OP. Um, this is kind of a biggie and tells me a lot.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have seen their community (Chabad-Lubovitch) described online as Hasidic and ultra-orthodox, but their sect’s website also insists they are orthodox, not ultra-orthodox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m not Jewish but from where my husband’s family sits (unobservant Reform), they view it as ultra orthodox. He has the black hat, she wears a wig.

I have become very active in Chabad and can shed some first-hand light on this.

It is true that the Rabbi and his wife of my Chabad House are ultra-Orthodox(although they would not describe themselves that way: they'd just say they are Jewish). But I myself was raised conservative - and remain so - and most of the people who are involved with Chabad are as well. (Just about everyone drives to services, for example.) The Chabad Rabbi and wife never said or intimated anything that gives me even a hint of pressure that they would like me to be more religious. They are simply happy that I remain connected with Judaism - as well as all the others. I find them a warm, welcoming group with interesting classes, GREAT holiday parties, lots of lectures and social activities - you should see Chanukah week (pre-COVID): a big "to-do" every single night! - and meaningful sermons at services. I have learned SO much from this group, and made some really nice friends. Just about the only thing I don't like is the separation of men/women during services, but nothing is perfect.

The website of my local chapter says they make no discernment as to whether someone is Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform - and states that "a Jew is a Jew is a Jew."

(Also, just FYI, the reason I left my conservative synagogue and affiliated with this one instead has nothing to do with religion - it has to do with politics. The conservative and reform synagogues are becoming increasingly hostile to those who do not like liberal policies, and the last step was when a congregant yelled at my mother and me right in the "Kiddush Hall" for voting for Trump - and called us racists. Others at Chabad have told me the same thing - that they joined not because they want to be more religious, but they they want to stay connected to Judaism and feel unwelcome in their previous synagogues due to politics.)

Wow. I had no idea ultra orthodox was where Jewish Trumpers congregate.

Anonymous wrote:I have seen their community (Chabad-Lubovitch) described online as Hasidic and ultra-orthodox, but their sect’s website also insists they are orthodox, not ultra-orthodox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m not Jewish but from where my husband’s family sits (unobservant Reform), they view it as ultra orthodox. He has the black hat, she wears a wig.

I have become very active in Chabad and can shed some first-hand light on this.

It is true that the Rabbi and his wife of my Chabad House are ultra-Orthodox(although they would not describe themselves that way: they'd just say they are Jewish). But I myself was raised conservative - and remain so - and most of the people who are involved with Chabad are as well. (Just about everyone drives to services, for example.) The Chabad Rabbi and wife never said or intimated anything that gives me even a hint of pressure that they would like me to be more religious. They are simply happy that I remain connected with Judaism - as well as all the others. I find them a warm, welcoming group with interesting classes, GREAT holiday parties, lots of lectures and social activities - you should see Chanukah week (pre-COVID): a big "to-do" every single night! - and meaningful sermons at services. I have learned SO much from this group, and made some really nice friends. Just about the only thing I don't like is the separation of men/women during services, but nothing is perfect.

The website of my local chapter says they make no discernment as to whether someone is Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform - and states that "a Jew is a Jew is a Jew."

(Also, just FYI, the reason I left my conservative synagogue and affiliated with this one instead has nothing to do with religion - it has to do with politics. The conservative and reform synagogues are becoming increasingly hostile to those who do not like liberal policies, and the last step was when a congregant yelled at my mother and me right in the "Kiddush Hall" for voting for Trump - and called us racists. Others at Chabad have told me the same thing - that they joined not because they want to be more religious, but they they want to stay connected to Judaism and feel unwelcome in their previous synagogues due to politics.)

Anonymous wrote:I have seen their community (Chabad-Lubovitch) described online as Hasidic and ultra-orthodox, but their sect’s website also insists they are orthodox, not ultra-orthodox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m not Jewish but from where my husband’s family sits (unobservant Reform), they view it as ultra orthodox. He has the black hat, she wears a wig.

All of the orthodox married women I’ve ever met covered their hair.

Anonymous wrote:I have seen their community (Chabad-Lubovitch) described online as Hasidic and ultra-orthodox, but their sect’s website also insists they are orthodox, not ultra-orthodox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m not Jewish but from where my husband’s family sits (unobservant Reform), they view it as ultra orthodox. He has the black hat, she wears a wig.

They are too far from the active and functional Jewish community to understand the difference. Not good sources.

I have seen their community (Chabad-Lubovitch) described online as Hasidic and ultra-orthodox, but their sect’s website also insists they are orthodox, not ultra-orthodox. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’m not Jewish but from where my husband’s family sits (unobservant Reform), they view it as ultra orthodox. He has the black hat, she wears a wig.

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for responding. His wife (convert from conservative) is on Facebook, and posts a weird mix of carefully curated professional family photos, paeans to the IDF, and pro-Trump/Nikki Haley/Israel memes. Brother-in-law took down his social media because … too many people from his former life were “Wtf?” I screen it out because I just can’t.

And thank you for mentioning closeted. The entire family completely assumed he was gay — which everyone would have been 100% fine with. (This is the uncle who taught my kids the words to “Diamonds are a Girl’s best friend,” name dropped Donna Summer and jokes from Clueless.) it’s like he put himself in the closet — and bricked himself in. It’s his life but it strikes me as so sad.

I’m not Jewish, but do you consider that they are just Orthodox and not ultra-Orthodox. I have Orthodox coworkers and they are on FB.

DH’s best friend growing up became ultra-Orthodox. Both DH and friend were raised Conservative Jews. Friend’s family was kind of a mess and he basically had a nervous breakdown in college. He was at Hopkins and got pulled into the Ultra-Orthodox community in Baltimore. For him, it was definitely a case of not being able to handle nuances and needing to live in a world with black and white rules. His first marriage was to a woman who was also a convert and she was mentally ill. His second wife is more stable and was raised in the community. He was eight kids and no job, but his rich parents still send him money. It’s really sad to see because I see all the pictures of him with DH growing up and he had a lot of potential.

Anonymous wrote:You will not find these people online b/c they cannot use the internet except for work purposes. For people who became ultra orthodox in the 1970s/80s, much of this was Boomer seekerism post-60s drug/free love narcissism, etc. Just like former hippies became Christian fundamentalists, Jewish hippies became Jewish fundamentalists (or joined a variety of other cults). In my family, the members who became religious in the 90s/2000s were either closeted and couldn’t deal with being gay, drug addicts, or depressives who resisted mood stabilizers. They all essentially cut themselves off or make life very difficult at gatherings (we put a kosher kitchen in the basement that we do not use when they are not there - and still they won’t eat warmed food, etc., men don’t want to sit on chairs that in theory a menstruating could sit on).

Chiming in to second this based on a family member's similar experience. It was the cult that was available.

Thank you for responding. His wife (convert from conservative) is on Facebook, and posts a weird mix of carefully curated professional family photos, paeans to the IDF, and pro-Trump/Nikki Haley/Israel memes. Brother-in-law took down his social media because … too many people from his former life were “Wtf?” I screen it out because I just can’t.

And thank you for mentioning closeted. The entire family completely assumed he was gay — which everyone would have been 100% fine with. (This is the uncle who taught my kids the words to “Diamonds are a Girl’s best friend,” name dropped Donna Summer and jokes from Clueless.) it’s like he put himself in the closet — and bricked himself in. It’s his life but it strikes me as so sad.

You will not find these people online b/c they cannot use the internet except for work purposes. For people who became ultra orthodox in the 1970s/80s, much of this was Boomer seekerism post-60s drug/free love narcissism, etc. Just like former hippies became Christian fundamentalists, Jewish hippies became Jewish fundamentalists (or joined a variety of other cults). In my family, the members who became religious in the 90s/2000s were either closeted and couldn’t deal with being gay, drug addicts, or depressives who resisted mood stabilizers. They all essentially cut themselves off or make life very difficult at gatherings (we put a kosher kitchen in the basement that we do not use when they are not there - and still they won’t eat warmed food, etc., men don’t want to sit on chairs that in theory a menstruating could sit on).

Basically the inverse of another thread here. And if you’re a non-ultra-orthodox extended family member, what has it been like? This has been my brother-in-law’s journey and it’s been … interesting. He has essentially cut himself off from everyone.