Anonymous
03/17/2021 12:46
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:p.s.: i would add to the above that compassion and altruism is also a trait of humans and we also do good sometimes, so I don't think you can only
look at the negative side of the ledger.
OP here. This is a good point. I think sometimes I get fixated on the negative of humanity because that is what we “see” so often when we turn on the news. There’s constant mass shootings, political leaders from both parties being accused of sexual assault, climate crises, etc.
But re: the response about the Bible and jealousy, I just can’t bring myself to believe in organized religion. I don’t think we’re fighting climate change and mass shootings because of some fall from grace from Eden. It’s a nice story that gives people a reason “why” for the tough questions.
Anonymous
03/17/2021 12:41
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP, I think about this a lot as well. And it feels like there is not a way to individually address this issue. It's a collective action issue but I feel like the consumerism of the 20th century in many ways destroyed the chances of true collective action in this way.
Consumerism is so comforting. Like you say, before the pandemic you had things to distract you from these thoughts. That's what the vast majority of consumerism is -- a distraction. Even a lot of consumerism that is billed as being "conscious" is nothing but a distraction. Buying organic foods at a health food store may make us feel better on an individual level, but it doesn't really do much to change the cycle. And a lot of other "conscious" consumption is much worse -- people buying piles of "green" clothing or house goods, people buying a new electric car every few years, people flying all over the world on huge gas-guzzling jets to visit places impacted by the destructive force of humanity so they can tell their friends "oh, it is terrible, that glacier may be gone soon -- I am so fortunate to have had the chance to see it." The difference between any of these actions and just eating hamburger from the local Giant and driving a big American car to the beach for vacations is not as vast as many people want to believe. Which is why so many "conscious" consumer activities are only accessible to those with money. It's a way for the biggest consumers to pretend they are saving the world as we continue to destroy it.
These thoughts have radicalized me. I do sometimes think it is too late. But if anything is to be done, I think it will take radical, sweeping, change. And I think Americans actually have an opportunity to effect that change because this country is so powerful and is leading the way to the destruction of humanity, so we also have a chance to lead the way to salvation.
Anyway, instead of becoming a Buddhist (or maybe in addition? I'm a secular humanist but I do think there is much to learn from Buddhist philosophy), I became a Democratic Socialist. The dues are low! The Green New Deal is a genuinely ambitious set of policy proposals. It feels like it could make a real difference. Join us.
Thank you for this thoughtful response. Perhaps these thoughts need a political outlet more than a religious one. I just can’t help but feeling like we’re living out the Giving Tree with our earth, and I am longing for a way for a way to feel more balance with the world and other living beings. I will have to check out the Green New Deal.
And I forgot to add, I agree with you so much about how elitist “sustainable living” can be. And I say this as someone who drives an EV, shops at my local farmer’s market, and has time to drop off glass recycling. I’m only able to do these things because of immense privilege and like you said, it’s not changing the world as much as I wish it would. To that end, I think you’re onto something that this is a problem that needs collective action.
Anonymous
03/17/2021 12:37
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:OP, I think about this a lot as well. And it feels like there is not a way to individually address this issue. It's a collective action issue but I feel like the consumerism of the 20th century in many ways destroyed the chances of true collective action in this way.
Consumerism is so comforting. Like you say, before the pandemic you had things to distract you from these thoughts. That's what the vast majority of consumerism is -- a distraction. Even a lot of consumerism that is billed as being "conscious" is nothing but a distraction. Buying organic foods at a health food store may make us feel better on an individual level, but it doesn't really do much to change the cycle. And a lot of other "conscious" consumption is much worse -- people buying piles of "green" clothing or house goods, people buying a new electric car every few years, people flying all over the world on huge gas-guzzling jets to visit places impacted by the destructive force of humanity so they can tell their friends "oh, it is terrible, that glacier may be gone soon -- I am so fortunate to have had the chance to see it." The difference between any of these actions and just eating hamburger from the local Giant and driving a big American car to the beach for vacations is not as vast as many people want to believe. Which is why so many "conscious" consumer activities are only accessible to those with money. It's a way for the biggest consumers to pretend they are saving the world as we continue to destroy it.
These thoughts have radicalized me. I do sometimes think it is too late. But if anything is to be done, I think it will take radical, sweeping, change. And I think Americans actually have an opportunity to effect that change because this country is so powerful and is leading the way to the destruction of humanity, so we also have a chance to lead the way to salvation.
Anyway, instead of becoming a Buddhist (or maybe in addition? I'm a secular humanist but I do think there is much to learn from Buddhist philosophy), I became a Democratic Socialist. The dues are low! The Green New Deal is a genuinely ambitious set of policy proposals. It feels like it could make a real difference. Join us.
Thank you for this thoughtful response. Perhaps these thoughts need a political outlet more than a religious one. I just can’t help but feeling like we’re living out the Giving Tree with our earth, and I am longing for a way for a way to feel more balance with the world and other living beings. I will have to check out the Green New Deal.
Anonymous
03/17/2021 11:20
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
p.s.: i would add to the above that compassion and altruism is also a trait of humans and we also do good sometimes, so I don't think you can only
look at the negative side of the ledger.
look at the negative side of the ledger.
Anonymous
03/17/2021 11:17
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Well, very early on, the third person on earth killed his brother out of jealousy. So we are made in God's image but he gave us jealousy and the impulse to murder our fellow man. So yeah, I guess its a fundamental trait of humans to cause suffering. Not sure what the Op's point is.
Anonymous
03/16/2021 15:10
Subject: To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m not a very religious person, but I try to maintain some spirituality with the world. Lately though this pandemic has just opened my eyes to how much suffering humans cause just by our existence.
For one, our construction and factory farming practices make it more likely that zoonotic diseases will spread again in the future. It feels like maybe the pandemic is punishment for how we treat animals. But at the same time, trying to extricate myself from the cycle of living in an agricultural society feels impractical. I do try to buy “humane” meat, but what does that label really mean and it’s such a small drop in the bucket of the entire world.
And this past year has really opened my eyes to the class differences in our world. Whether it’s in America (relying on low wage workers to go out there while the wealthy stay at home) or global (developed nations getting the bulk of the vaccine).
On a smaller scale, I am having trouble coming to grips with the harm I cause daily (e.g. setting a mouse snap trap when relocating them where I live is not practical or using a smart phone that was likely made by low wage workers). Just running the heat in my home is bad for the earth. I don’t know how/where to stop this vicious cycle of thinking, but I have to wonder if God made a mistake with our species or were we some accident of evolution?
Consider wondering if there is a God at all and whether evolution itself is an accident.
This is exactly what I’m wondering about. Are we the result of evolution gone too far and now we’re taking out the rest of the earth along with ourselves.
Maybe the "evolution gone too far" is an opinion or concern of yours but is actually a normal consequence of evolution. Maybe it's what happened on other planets where there was once life. Maybe, who knows? but perhaps you could try not to let it gnaw at you.
Certainly god-belief has done nothing to save the earth - but it has given comfort to some while they are here. And it's made others' lives miserable.
Anonymous
03/16/2021 10:57
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
OP, I think about this a lot as well. And it feels like there is not a way to individually address this issue. It's a collective action issue but I feel like the consumerism of the 20th century in many ways destroyed the chances of true collective action in this way.
Consumerism is so comforting. Like you say, before the pandemic you had things to distract you from these thoughts. That's what the vast majority of consumerism is -- a distraction. Even a lot of consumerism that is billed as being "conscious" is nothing but a distraction. Buying organic foods at a health food store may make us feel better on an individual level, but it doesn't really do much to change the cycle. And a lot of other "conscious" consumption is much worse -- people buying piles of "green" clothing or house goods, people buying a new electric car every few years, people flying all over the world on huge gas-guzzling jets to visit places impacted by the destructive force of humanity so they can tell their friends "oh, it is terrible, that glacier may be gone soon -- I am so fortunate to have had the chance to see it." The difference between any of these actions and just eating hamburger from the local Giant and driving a big American car to the beach for vacations is not as vast as many people want to believe. Which is why so many "conscious" consumer activities are only accessible to those with money. It's a way for the biggest consumers to pretend they are saving the world as we continue to destroy it.
These thoughts have radicalized me. I do sometimes think it is too late. But if anything is to be done, I think it will take radical, sweeping, change. And I think Americans actually have an opportunity to effect that change because this country is so powerful and is leading the way to the destruction of humanity, so we also have a chance to lead the way to salvation.
Anyway, instead of becoming a Buddhist (or maybe in addition? I'm a secular humanist but I do think there is much to learn from Buddhist philosophy), I became a Democratic Socialist. The dues are low! The Green New Deal is a genuinely ambitious set of policy proposals. It feels like it could make a real difference. Join us.
Consumerism is so comforting. Like you say, before the pandemic you had things to distract you from these thoughts. That's what the vast majority of consumerism is -- a distraction. Even a lot of consumerism that is billed as being "conscious" is nothing but a distraction. Buying organic foods at a health food store may make us feel better on an individual level, but it doesn't really do much to change the cycle. And a lot of other "conscious" consumption is much worse -- people buying piles of "green" clothing or house goods, people buying a new electric car every few years, people flying all over the world on huge gas-guzzling jets to visit places impacted by the destructive force of humanity so they can tell their friends "oh, it is terrible, that glacier may be gone soon -- I am so fortunate to have had the chance to see it." The difference between any of these actions and just eating hamburger from the local Giant and driving a big American car to the beach for vacations is not as vast as many people want to believe. Which is why so many "conscious" consumer activities are only accessible to those with money. It's a way for the biggest consumers to pretend they are saving the world as we continue to destroy it.
These thoughts have radicalized me. I do sometimes think it is too late. But if anything is to be done, I think it will take radical, sweeping, change. And I think Americans actually have an opportunity to effect that change because this country is so powerful and is leading the way to the destruction of humanity, so we also have a chance to lead the way to salvation.
Anyway, instead of becoming a Buddhist (or maybe in addition? I'm a secular humanist but I do think there is much to learn from Buddhist philosophy), I became a Democratic Socialist. The dues are low! The Green New Deal is a genuinely ambitious set of policy proposals. It feels like it could make a real difference. Join us.
Anonymous
03/16/2021 10:40
Subject: To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m not a very religious person, but I try to maintain some spirituality with the world. Lately though this pandemic has just opened my eyes to how much suffering humans cause just by our existence.
For one, our construction and factory farming practices make it more likely that zoonotic diseases will spread again in the future. It feels like maybe the pandemic is punishment for how we treat animals. But at the same time, trying to extricate myself from the cycle of living in an agricultural society feels impractical. I do try to buy “humane” meat, but what does that label really mean and it’s such a small drop in the bucket of the entire world.
And this past year has really opened my eyes to the class differences in our world. Whether it’s in America (relying on low wage workers to go out there while the wealthy stay at home) or global (developed nations getting the bulk of the vaccine).
On a smaller scale, I am having trouble coming to grips with the harm I cause daily (e.g. setting a mouse snap trap when relocating them where I live is not practical or using a smart phone that was likely made by low wage workers). Just running the heat in my home is bad for the earth. I don’t know how/where to stop this vicious cycle of thinking, but I have to wonder if God made a mistake with our species or were we some accident of evolution?
Consider wondering if there is a God at all and whether evolution itself is an accident.
This is exactly what I’m wondering about. Are we the result of evolution gone too far and now we’re taking out the rest of the earth along with ourselves.
Anonymous
03/16/2021 10:36
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Try Buddhism. One of the main ideas is "life is suffering"
Good luck.
OP is taking about humans causing suffering. That concept, though has always existed, is amplified in modern industrialized life. Buddha does not focus on that.
The fix for this is to have the human species go extinct, and this is one of the key drivers for antinatalism.
OP here. Yes, I’ve read some about Buddhism and a lot of it resonates although I’m not sure I could practically lead a vegan lifestyle (I realize not all Buddhists are vegans, but it seems to flow from a lot of the teachings).
But I guess my concern is how to reconcile a belief in a higher power with the suffering our species has caused (wars, genocide, slavery, labor exploitation, conspicuous consumerism, factory farming). I was raised Christian, but have always been bothered by the idea that humans were created in God’s image because it seems to be an excuse for species exceptionalism that seems to justify treating the world however we’d like. A PP mentioned anti-natalism, which I’ve read about, but I find depressing, probably because I already have children. I’d like to think I didn’t bring them into a world that would be better off without all of us. I want to believe humanity has redeeming qualities consistent with a loving creator, but that can be hard.
I’ve been finding myself really questioning the world and my faith during the pandemic. I think I used to quiet these concerns by busying myself (kids’ activities, exercise, work conferences, concerts, etc.), but with those outlets gone, it’s hard not to focus on these hard questions about how/why we were created.
Anonymous
03/16/2021 10:28
Subject: To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Some people cause themselves and others suffering by choosing to believe that if there’s a higher power, it must be one that is out to cause them suffering.
Anonymous
03/16/2021 10:26
Subject: To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:I’m not a very religious person, but I try to maintain some spirituality with the world. Lately though this pandemic has just opened my eyes to how much suffering humans cause just by our existence.
For one, our construction and factory farming practices make it more likely that zoonotic diseases will spread again in the future. It feels like maybe the pandemic is punishment for how we treat animals. But at the same time, trying to extricate myself from the cycle of living in an agricultural society feels impractical. I do try to buy “humane” meat, but what does that label really mean and it’s such a small drop in the bucket of the entire world.
And this past year has really opened my eyes to the class differences in our world. Whether it’s in America (relying on low wage workers to go out there while the wealthy stay at home) or global (developed nations getting the bulk of the vaccine).
On a smaller scale, I am having trouble coming to grips with the harm I cause daily (e.g. setting a mouse snap trap when relocating them where I live is not practical or using a smart phone that was likely made by low wage workers). Just running the heat in my home is bad for the earth. I don’t know how/where to stop this vicious cycle of thinking, but I have to wonder if God made a mistake with our species or were we some accident of evolution?
Consider wondering if there is a God at all and whether evolution itself is an accident.
Anonymous
03/15/2021 19:54
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:Try Buddhism. One of the main ideas is "life is suffering"
Good luck.
OP is taking about humans causing suffering. That concept, though has always existed, is amplified in modern industrialized life. Buddha does not focus on that.
The fix for this is to have the human species go extinct, and this is one of the key drivers for antinatalism.
Anonymous
03/15/2021 19:50
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Anonymous wrote:Try Buddhism. One of the main ideas is "life is suffering"
Good luck.
No, According to the Buddha, pain is inevitable but suffering is optional.
Anonymous
03/15/2021 19:46
Subject: Re:To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
Try Buddhism. One of the main ideas is "life is suffering"
Good luck.
Good luck.
Anonymous
03/15/2021 16:52
Subject: To Be Human = Cause Suffering?
I’m not a very religious person, but I try to maintain some spirituality with the world. Lately though this pandemic has just opened my eyes to how much suffering humans cause just by our existence.
For one, our construction and factory farming practices make it more likely that zoonotic diseases will spread again in the future. It feels like maybe the pandemic is punishment for how we treat animals. But at the same time, trying to extricate myself from the cycle of living in an agricultural society feels impractical. I do try to buy “humane” meat, but what does that label really mean and it’s such a small drop in the bucket of the entire world.
And this past year has really opened my eyes to the class differences in our world. Whether it’s in America (relying on low wage workers to go out there while the wealthy stay at home) or global (developed nations getting the bulk of the vaccine).
On a smaller scale, I am having trouble coming to grips with the harm I cause daily (e.g. setting a mouse snap trap when relocating them where I live is not practical or using a smart phone that was likely made by low wage workers). Just running the heat in my home is bad for the earth. I don’t know how/where to stop this vicious cycle of thinking, but I have to wonder if God made a mistake with our species or were we some accident of evolution?
For one, our construction and factory farming practices make it more likely that zoonotic diseases will spread again in the future. It feels like maybe the pandemic is punishment for how we treat animals. But at the same time, trying to extricate myself from the cycle of living in an agricultural society feels impractical. I do try to buy “humane” meat, but what does that label really mean and it’s such a small drop in the bucket of the entire world.
And this past year has really opened my eyes to the class differences in our world. Whether it’s in America (relying on low wage workers to go out there while the wealthy stay at home) or global (developed nations getting the bulk of the vaccine).
On a smaller scale, I am having trouble coming to grips with the harm I cause daily (e.g. setting a mouse snap trap when relocating them where I live is not practical or using a smart phone that was likely made by low wage workers). Just running the heat in my home is bad for the earth. I don’t know how/where to stop this vicious cycle of thinking, but I have to wonder if God made a mistake with our species or were we some accident of evolution?