Anonymous
11/13/2024 21:17
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Funny. I just paid a behavioral therapist who wanted to talk through the Kazdin method and start from scratch on basic parenting. I went and just read the book and am frankly insulted that this is all that there is. It is not rocket science and does not answer specific questions I have about the intersection of ADHD and behavior. I’m surprised that this is basically all that is pushed for parents to follow, when this is a reasonable approach for any parents to use anyway.
Working through it weekly with a clinician was invaluable. You can’t compare it to reading the books.
+100. What Kazdin does is give a blueprint for how to implement skills that are actually hard to implement correctly - like correctly calibrating negative consequences. He also is quite good at discussing the positive consequences that work for different ages - like advised that teens need much more low-key praise and appreciation, but they still need it.
These books are practical methods that apply to a range of underlying diagnoses (or no diagnosis). If you want a more theoretical understanding of ADHD you’ll have to look elsewhere. And also, the whole point of behavioral methods is that you sort of experiment and look at the behavior right in front of you. You don’t say “well I cannot do anything until I know the root cause”. You don’t necessarily need any diagnosis.
And this is where Kazdin and Greene are opposites, because Greene's philosophy is you MUST know the cause before you can solve the real problem.
well that seems pretty fruitless.
Anonymous
11/13/2024 21:16
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's a bit odd to me that apparently several people here recommend both Kazdin and Ross Greene, because they are opposite methods. For Greene, offering lots of praise is Plan A, and you don't do any Plan A.
I kind of agree! The commonality they have is that they both see behavior as being changeable with effort. But as far as I recall, Greene doesn’t really provide any coherent instruction or theory about how to teach missing skills or what to do if Plan A and B fail. But I do think that reading both would give parents more of a sense that behavior is something they have some power to change instead of just react to, and both make parents more reflective about how their own behavior may contribute to their child’s behavior. And both encourage a more analytic approach to behavior.
NP but I was also puzzled that people were recommending both. The *only* commonality that I recall is both say you cannot react negatively to unwanted behavior in the moment. Just ignore it.
Greene specifically says his method *does not* address - or solve for - behavior directly. Screaming and rudeness at the dinner table after soccer on Wednesday may need an entirely different solution than screaming and rudeness before church on Sunday. You have to find the problem before you can solve the problem. Solve the problem, and the behavior will go away.
And no, Greene does not specifically teach most missing skills - they may develop with time and maturity, learning through observation or through explicit practice, or they may not. His method focuses on solving the problems you have now (or letting them go temporarily) to give everyone more energy (mental and physical) for more important things. I can't teach my kid patience and discomfort tolerance in a week, but I can give him a snack in the car on the way home from soccer so he doesn't get hangry, and let him skip church or go to a later service when he's up late studying the night before. It's recognizing that my kid *cannot* make it from soccer to dinner as-is, and no amount of behavioral modification training or wishful thinking will change that. He feels just as bad if not worse than I do when he screams and rages - he's not *choosing* to be "bad". He's having a hard time. It's my job to help him figure out why. In the long run, it does teach valuable problem solving skills.
weird. why would greene think you cannot modify behavior? and examining antecedents (like behavior triggered by hunger or tiredness) is something Kazdin pays a lot of attention to.
Anonymous
11/13/2024 21:14
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Funny. I just paid a behavioral therapist who wanted to talk through the Kazdin method and start from scratch on basic parenting. I went and just read the book and am frankly insulted that this is all that there is. It is not rocket science and does not answer specific questions I have about the intersection of ADHD and behavior. I’m surprised that this is basically all that is pushed for parents to follow, when this is a reasonable approach for any parents to use anyway.
Working through it weekly with a clinician was invaluable. You can’t compare it to reading the books.
+100. What Kazdin does is give a blueprint for how to implement skills that are actually hard to implement correctly - like correctly calibrating negative consequences. He also is quite good at discussing the positive consequences that work for different ages - like advised that teens need much more low-key praise and appreciation, but they still need it.
These books are practical methods that apply to a range of underlying diagnoses (or no diagnosis). If you want a more theoretical understanding of ADHD you’ll have to look elsewhere. And also, the whole point of behavioral methods is that you sort of experiment and look at the behavior right in front of you. You don’t say “well I cannot do anything until I know the root cause”. You don’t necessarily need any diagnosis.
And this is where Kazdin and Greene are opposites, because Greene's philosophy is you MUST know the cause before you can solve the real problem.
Anonymous
11/13/2024 21:12
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's a bit odd to me that apparently several people here recommend both Kazdin and Ross Greene, because they are opposite methods. For Greene, offering lots of praise is Plan A, and you don't do any Plan A.
I kind of agree! The commonality they have is that they both see behavior as being changeable with effort. But as far as I recall, Greene doesn’t really provide any coherent instruction or theory about how to teach missing skills or what to do if Plan A and B fail. But I do think that reading both would give parents more of a sense that behavior is something they have some power to change instead of just react to, and both make parents more reflective about how their own behavior may contribute to their child’s behavior. And both encourage a more analytic approach to behavior.
NP but I was also puzzled that people were recommending both. The *only* commonality that I recall is both say you cannot react negatively to unwanted behavior in the moment. Just ignore it.
Greene specifically says his method *does not* address - or solve for - behavior directly. Screaming and rudeness at the dinner table after soccer on Wednesday may need an entirely different solution than screaming and rudeness before church on Sunday. You have to find the problem before you can solve the problem. Solve the problem, and the behavior will go away.
And no, Greene does not specifically teach most missing skills - they may develop with time and maturity, learning through observation or through explicit practice, or they may not. His method focuses on solving the problems you have now (or letting them go temporarily) to give everyone more energy (mental and physical) for more important things. I can't teach my kid patience and discomfort tolerance in a week, but I can give him a snack in the car on the way home from soccer so he doesn't get hangry, and let him skip church or go to a later service when he's up late studying the night before. It's recognizing that my kid *cannot* make it from soccer to dinner as-is, and no amount of behavioral modification training or wishful thinking will change that. He feels just as bad if not worse than I do when he screams and rages - he's not *choosing* to be "bad". He's having a hard time. It's my job to help him figure out why. In the long run, it does teach valuable problem solving skills.
Anonymous
11/12/2024 08:33
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Funny. I just paid a behavioral therapist who wanted to talk through the Kazdin method and start from scratch on basic parenting. I went and just read the book and am frankly insulted that this is all that there is. It is not rocket science and does not answer specific questions I have about the intersection of ADHD and behavior. I’m surprised that this is basically all that is pushed for parents to follow, when this is a reasonable approach for any parents to use anyway.
Working through it weekly with a clinician was invaluable. You can’t compare it to reading the books.
+100. What Kazdin does is give a blueprint for how to implement skills that are actually hard to implement correctly - like correctly calibrating negative consequences. He also is quite good at discussing the positive consequences that work for different ages - like advised that teens need much more low-key praise and appreciation, but they still need it.
These books are practical methods that apply to a range of underlying diagnoses (or no diagnosis). If you want a more theoretical understanding of ADHD you’ll have to look elsewhere. And also, the whole point of behavioral methods is that you sort of experiment and look at the behavior right in front of you. You don’t say “well I cannot do anything until I know the root cause”. You don’t necessarily need any diagnosis.
Anonymous
11/12/2024 08:28
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:It's a bit odd to me that apparently several people here recommend both Kazdin and Ross Greene, because they are opposite methods. For Greene, offering lots of praise is Plan A, and you don't do any Plan A.
I kind of agree! The commonality they have is that they both see behavior as being changeable with effort. But as far as I recall, Greene doesn’t really provide any coherent instruction or theory about how to teach missing skills or what to do if Plan A and B fail. But I do think that reading both would give parents more of a sense that behavior is something they have some power to change instead of just react to, and both make parents more reflective about how their own behavior may contribute to their child’s behavior. And both encourage a more analytic approach to behavior.
Anonymous
11/11/2024 21:47
Subject: Question on kazdin method
It's a bit odd to me that apparently several people here recommend both Kazdin and Ross Greene, because they are opposite methods. For Greene, offering lots of praise is Plan A, and you don't do any Plan A.
Anonymous
11/11/2024 20:11
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:Funny. I just paid a behavioral therapist who wanted to talk through the Kazdin method and start from scratch on basic parenting. I went and just read the book and am frankly insulted that this is all that there is. It is not rocket science and does not answer specific questions I have about the intersection of ADHD and behavior. I’m surprised that this is basically all that is pushed for parents to follow, when this is a reasonable approach for any parents to use anyway.
Working through it weekly with a clinician was invaluable. You can’t compare it to reading the books.
Anonymous
11/11/2024 19:37
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Funny. I just paid a behavioral therapist who wanted to talk through the Kazdin method and start from scratch on basic parenting. I went and just read the book and am frankly insulted that this is all that there is. It is not rocket science and does not answer specific questions I have about the intersection of ADHD and behavior. I’m surprised that this is basically all that is pushed for parents to follow, when this is a reasonable approach for any parents to use anyway.
Anonymous
05/18/2020 14:37
Subject: Re:Question on kazdin method
I liked it (and have recommended it here) because it is has been rigorously evaluated at an academic medical center/is evidence based, and was helpful in my family. No, I’m dr. Kazdin, lol.
Anonymous
05/18/2020 14:21
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Anonymous wrote:I have been on these forums and many others for years. I repeatedly see advice for the kazdin method on this forum only, not any other adhd or asd forums. I have read it and do it see anything remarkable about it that I haven’t read in a dozen other books and methods.
Is the person who came up with it on this forum and is always promoting it or is there something specific to kazdin that others are benefitting from that I’m not seeing? I would appreciate any insight.
I find it hilarious that you think Alan kazdin, a researcher at Yale for 30 years is trolling dcum to promote his book. I wish. We’d get lots better advice if more qualified professionals did the answers.
Anonymous
05/18/2020 13:51
Subject: Question on kazdin method
Yet another who thought both Kazdin and Ross Greene's books were helpful. I've recommended those as well as the Out of Synch child books. I don't read a ton of parenting books, so maybe there are others out there that are good as well, but I thought that they were all better than the basic 1-2-3 Magic stuff. (Nothing is magic in my household.) I also thought the ADHD Book of Lists was pretty good, and got more to the executive function stuff, whereas Kazdin and Greene hit more on the behavioral stuff.
I'd also note that my journey on this road started about a decade ago, so there may be better stuff out there at this point. I've had the ADHD Family Solution on my bookshelf to read for a year, and I've also been sort of curious about Rebecca Resnik's new book about ADHD -- a Family's First Guide to ADHD. But at this point I figure we are way past the first guide.
I'd also note that my journey on this road started about a decade ago, so there may be better stuff out there at this point. I've had the ADHD Family Solution on my bookshelf to read for a year, and I've also been sort of curious about Rebecca Resnik's new book about ADHD -- a Family's First Guide to ADHD. But at this point I figure we are way past the first guide.
Anonymous
05/18/2020 12:39
Subject: Question on kazdin method
I also recommend Kazdin. We took a class which stepped us through the method and gave us lots of practice and feedback, which was invaluable in implementing it successfully. (Through a local therapy practice.)
We also took the Shapiro class and have done lots of reading of Ross Greene's stuff. All have been helpful.
We also took the Shapiro class and have done lots of reading of Ross Greene's stuff. All have been helpful.
Anonymous
05/18/2020 11:39
Subject: Re:Question on kazdin method
I am one of the people who recommends Kazdin and also Shapiro’s classes, but I am not either of them. I don’t think anything in them is radically different. The approaches are both based on sound research. I also recommend Kenworthy’s Unstuck and On Target, I have seen all of these authors speak in person and have been impressed at the depth of their knowledge/ insight and also how committed they are to getting their approaches into the hands of parents.
One of the things that stands out to me about Kazdin’s method is the level of focus and enthusiasm you have to bring to it as a parent. Have you watched the video clips of positive models? That was really helpful for my DH to bring it to life. He thought throwing out an occasional gruff “good job” counted as positive reinforcement, and that just doesn’t cut it with our complex kids.
I also really like and use Ross Green’s work with the Explosive Child series. I think one of the differences on this board is that the parents tend to be really well-read and also are more able to afford professional help who recommend these sources too. I have lived in other areas of the country where the parents have less exposure to some of these resources from within their personal networks.
One of the things that stands out to me about Kazdin’s method is the level of focus and enthusiasm you have to bring to it as a parent. Have you watched the video clips of positive models? That was really helpful for my DH to bring it to life. He thought throwing out an occasional gruff “good job” counted as positive reinforcement, and that just doesn’t cut it with our complex kids.
I also really like and use Ross Green’s work with the Explosive Child series. I think one of the differences on this board is that the parents tend to be really well-read and also are more able to afford professional help who recommend these sources too. I have lived in other areas of the country where the parents have less exposure to some of these resources from within their personal networks.
Anonymous
05/18/2020 09:55
Subject: Question on kazdin method
I have been on these forums and many others for years. I repeatedly see advice for the kazdin method on this forum only, not any other adhd or asd forums. I have read it and do it see anything remarkable about it that I haven’t read in a dozen other books and methods.
Is the person who came up with it on this forum and is always promoting it or is there something specific to kazdin that others are benefitting from that I’m not seeing? I would appreciate any insight.
Is the person who came up with it on this forum and is always promoting it or is there something specific to kazdin that others are benefitting from that I’m not seeing? I would appreciate any insight.