I was going to ask if you have Power of Attorney, and if not, point out that it's her money, and she can make the move if she so chooses. However, that would be an incredibly stupid comment to make, because a woman who can't change the channel on the TV (!!!) obviously can't organize a move.

I am going to be less charitable than others, and say that she has been manipulating you, your sister, and your father before you for years, and is a fairly terrible person. The fact that you and your sister are alternating 3-day weekends with her is an easy example of this, as is the fact that you are continually having this discussion. Come on, OP.

You are right, she's not going to change. The only person you can change here is yourself - you need to decide that you won't be manipulated anymore. That can take many forms, from living your own life, not hostage to an able woman who just refuses to care for herself. If she wants to life in squalor, that's her choice, and you don't feel guilty about it. If she wants to watch a test pattern because she can't use the remote, you don't hire someone to do it for her, and you don't give it a second thought.

You have had experience caring for someone who truly is incapacitated, so you know how exhausting it is. It's not something you (or anyone) should feel compelled to do.

Remember, the only behavior you can change here is yours.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She needs companionship. The cheaper solution is to hire an aide or elder companion for a few hours a day or every other day and save the big guns for when and if she needs it someday.

Oops. Our messages overlapped.

As far as companionship, she has lovely neighbors - I've met three of them - who have asked her to join them with various social activities (and in the dining room for meals). So she has opportunity for socializing, but it's not the "help" she needs. When my sister and I made the very suggestion you did - hire an aide for every other day - she said she needs an aide full-time if she doesn't go back to AL. (Not overnights....she has the pendant.) But it would still be for at let 12 hours a day, at $25 an hour, five days a week, which adds up to $300 a day, or $1500 a week in addition to the $3,600 for the apartment. We're back up to almost $10,000 a month.

She has been irate on the phone the last couple of days because she says she is being neglected.

Dp. She is not being neglected. I really think it is loneliness and the fact that she seems to equate being taken care of completely with being cared for. I think an aide for a few hours a day is a good compromise -- not all day. You can be firm and say "I showed you last time how to adjust the shower/take out the trash/dial the phone. If you still need help, you can ask the aide when she arrives." None of the things she needs help with are true emergencies. The trash can wait, the shower can wait....and if she's tired of waiting, she can try and do it herself. She won't want to, but it's best in the long run.

Yes, all true. My sister and I know she is not being neglected. She has great meals there, and she also has the pendant for a true emergency. She also has some nice neighbors who want to befriend her.

But you are right. She sees having her every need met as being "loved."

While we are all chatting (and thank you to the posters helping me work through this), my sister just called - it's her weekend - because Mom is depressed and hasn't gotten out of bed since yesterday. (She had my sister bring up her meals yesterday.) She wants me to come over tomorrow, and together we are going to tell Mom that we are hiring an aide 4 hour a day, 3 days a week - and we are cutting our visits down to a regular weekend. That means, and we'll explain this to her, that she is "on her own" only 2 days a week, and in a true emergency, she has a pendant. I expect a LOT of push-back, and anger.

Anonymous wrote:Absolutely do not even consider moving her back there. That would be ridiculous! It will just take time. I think you need to make sure you are not enabling her too much. For example, point out the trash that needs picking up but get her to do it. Also, the day weekends are not sustainable. Could she move closer to one of you? If not start making every few weeks a a 2 day one until they are all 2 day & go from there. She will not learn unless you stop making it too easy for her.

I don’t mean to sound harsh - my mom died quickly a few years ago and she had been the one to do all of the household stuff, bills, food, etc. We had to show my dad a few basics but of course he has been able to do it all now. It was also a good distraction and kept him busy when he was adjust to his new normal.

The trash is a good example. I've pointed out that she needs to put it in the trash can, and a big argument will ensue. She keeps saying that if I am there, I can do it. The last time I stormed out of there, NOT doing it, and when my sister went back the following weekend, the trash was even worse. Sis dumped everything in the trash. But the cycle repeats.

I realize we are enabling her, but she becomes extremely irate if required to do something on her own, even something simple. It's classic manipulation, but it's worked for her for all these years. I don't think trying to change her at age 88 will work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She needs companionship. The cheaper solution is to hire an aide or elder companion for a few hours a day or every other day and save the big guns for when and if she needs it someday.

Oops. Our messages overlapped.

As far as companionship, she has lovely neighbors - I've met three of them - who have asked her to join them with various social activities (and in the dining room for meals). So she has opportunity for socializing, but it's not the "help" she needs. When my sister and I made the very suggestion you did - hire an aide for every other day - she said she needs an aide full-time if she doesn't go back to AL. (Not overnights....she has the pendant.) But it would still be for at let 12 hours a day, at $25 an hour, five days a week, which adds up to $300 a day, or $1500 a week in addition to the $3,600 for the apartment. We're back up to almost $10,000 a month.

She has been irate on the phone the last couple of days because she says she is being neglected.

Dp. She is not being neglected. I really think it is loneliness and the fact that she seems to equate being taken care of completely with being cared for. I think an aide for a few hours a day is a good compromise -- not all day. You can be firm and say "I showed you last time how to adjust the shower/take out the trash/dial the phone. If you still need help, you can ask the aide when she arrives." None of the things she needs help with are true emergencies. The trash can wait, the shower can wait....and if she's tired of waiting, she can try and do it herself. She won't want to, but it's best in the long run.

Anonymous wrote:I almost wonder if there’s something like an occupational therapist who could teach her to do these activities? It certainly sounds like there is a disorder that lead your mom to not be able to complete these daily living activities, that your dad compensated for. OTs teach people how to accomplish tasks.

Yes, she has dependency disorder and depression (they are related.....when you are helpless, you don't feel good about yourself), and has seen psychiatrists on and off for decades. I have been told that hers is a very hard case.

But your idea about the OT is good. (The things she can't do - like work the TV - are so basic; is that what an OT would work with?)

Anonymous wrote:She is still settling in. Change is hard for a woman in her late 80's who has recently lost her husband. Her world has been upended.

She needs to stick it out, though. Soon she will make new friends and this new place will be her new normal. Can you possibly pay an aid to drop by and visit her during the day?

That is what we are discussing, trying to get my mom to agree to it. She has said she want full-time aides, but we are proposing that we "start" with part-time and see how it goes. She hasn't agreed to part-time yet.

Anonymous wrote:She needs companionship. The cheaper solution is to hire an aide or elder companion for a few hours a day or every other day and save the big guns for when and if she needs it someday.

Oops. Our messages overlapped.

As far as companionship, she has lovely neighbors - I've met three of them - who have asked her to join them with various social activities (and in the dining room for meals). So she has opportunity for socializing, but it's not the "help" she needs. When my sister and I made the very suggestion you did - hire an aide for every other day - she said she needs an aide full-time if she doesn't go back to AL. (Not overnights....she has the pendant.) But it would still be for at let 12 hours a day, at $25 an hour, five days a week, which adds up to $300 a day, or $1500 a week in addition to the $3,600 for the apartment. We're back up to almost $10,000 a month.

She has been irate on the phone the last couple of days because she says she is being neglected.

Absolutely do not even consider moving her back there. That would be ridiculous! It will just take time. I think you need to make sure you are not enabling her too much. For example, point out the trash that needs picking up but get her to do it. Also, the day weekends are not sustainable. Could she move closer to one of you? If not start making every few weeks a a 2 day one until they are all 2 day & go from there. She will not learn unless you stop making it too easy for her.

I don’t mean to sound harsh - my mom died quickly a few years ago and she had been the one to do all of the household stuff, bills, food, etc. We had to show my dad a few basics but of course he has been able to do it all now. It was also a good distraction and kept him busy when he was adjust to his new normal.

That's tough. It may not be age-related decline, but at 88, if she's had everything done for her her entire life, it will be tough for her to adjust to doing things on her own. But at two weeks, she's still in an adjustment period. Give a little more time? Or can you hire an aide to be there with her a few hours a day to help her out? It maybe a combination of loneliness and just the idea that she is on her own day-to-day that scares her, rather than not being able to do anything herself.

I almost wonder if there’s something like an occupational therapist who could teach her to do these activities? It certainly sounds like there is a disorder that lead your mom to not be able to complete these daily living activities, that your dad compensated for. OTs teach people how to accomplish tasks.

She is still settling in. Change is hard for a woman in her late 80's who has recently lost her husband. Her world has been upended.

She needs to stick it out, though. Soon she will make new friends and this new place will be her new normal. Can you possibly pay an aid to drop by and visit her during the day?

P.P.S. We have looked into hiring full-time personal aides for her, and keeping her in the new apartment, but that works out to be more than just moving her back to assisted living.

She needs companionship. The cheaper solution is to hire an aide or elder companion for a few hours a day or every other day and save the big guns for when and if she needs it someday.

P.S. My sister and I live in a different state, but we are alternating 3-day weekends with Mom, ever since my father died, so Mom has one of us around half the time.

First, you should know that when I say "excessively dependent," I mean she needed my dad to turn on the TV for her, open mail addressed to her and tell her what it said, "dial" a phone number and then hand the phone to her when she wanted to make a call, that type of thing. (She married at 21 and has never lived alone. She is now 88.) Obviously, she never wrote a check or handled anything that went wrong with the house.

About a year ago, my dad became quite incapacitated, and he moved - along with my mother - into an assisted living apartment at $12,000 a month (which would have depleted their savings if it went on for years). Because my mother could no longer depend on my dad for her needs, she "enjoyed" the attention from the round-the-clock aides. Everything was done, from the laundry, to making beds, to discarding trash, to room service for meals, even to adjusting the volume on the TV.

Sadly, my dad passed away a few months ago, and we temporarily kept my mother in the assisted living apartment, where she was happy. (Almost eerily so, given my father's passing after 67 years of marriage.) My sister and I discussed leaving my mother in the assisted living apartment during the early adjustment, after which Mom agreed it made sense to move to an independent apartment in a nearby facility that still provided meals, weekly linen service, and 2x daily medication management, and lots of social activities. She also has a pendant to call for emergencies. (The cost dropped to $3,600 a month.)

Now after two weeks in the apartment, which she selected and loved, she is in total meltdown. She says she has nobody to "help her" - with changing TV channels, putting the trash in the basket (it's cluttering up the kitchen counter), or adjusting the water temperature in the shower (as examples) and wants us to call the movers back to get her back into the $12,000 assisted living apartment where, she says, she can be "cared for." Assuming that an assisted living facility would even take someone who is physically able and showing no signs of dementia, this of course is a terrible waste of money and is enabling my mother's dependency.

My sister and I are at a loss. Should we reschedule the movers after only two weeks to reverse the move? If so, and she lives there for another five or six years (her mother lived to be 97), she will deplete the savings and have to go on Medicaid. I am saying that it's her money, and if she ends up on Medicaid (eventually), so be it. My sister is saying that we would have to pay for Mom's continuing AL apartment to keep her off Medicaid, and of course that means I will be depleting my own savings for my own old age.

Advice?