Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:24
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:According to this article, education in the US is about the same as it was decades ago.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/04/07/what-international-test-scores-reveal-about-american-education/
NCLB neither improved nor ruined education.
Considering how long NCLB has been replaced, what are your thoughts on ESSA?
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:23
Subject: Re:Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:It is a system in disrepair. Is it beyond repair? I don't know.
Today I took a survey for the NEA. I've belonged to the VEA and NEA for 20+ years. I was appalled at the obvious bias of the survey. All of the questions were about politics and issues that are NOT related to education policies and topics. By the end I was answering with the most extreme responses just to see what would happen. When they asked who I voted for President in 2016 I lied and answered Trump. The survey ended.
My point is that this is the national organization for teachers and even they don't want to hear what teachers have to say. They have an agenda and they're sticking to it. Until they get more focused on what is happening in classrooms, and much less focused on their egos and wanting to be a powerhouse in American politics, we're really and truly going into the toilet. No wonder no one is listening to what teachers say. Even our teacher associations don't want to hear from us.
BTW I now change my answer. Yes, we are beyond repair.
Why do you assume that wasn’t the last question anyway. I took a survey that asked who I voted for governor and it also closed.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:19
Subject: Re:Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:I'm not American, and I've lived on 3 continents. I see a few reasons:
1) An obsession with all kids going to college. The idea that the average kid from Idaho should go to university is ludicrous in pretty much every country except the US. There's really no shame in it around the world the way there is in the States. Related to this, the idea that someone who isn't all that academically inclined must have a disability. In other countries, there are kids who are smarter and not so smart and it's just the way it is. Parents can accept that their kids can have different abilities to others.
2) A ton of special needs. Not sure what the US is doing that every second kid has ADHD or Autism or some type of developmental disorder these days, but it's just not what I see in other countries.
3) An obsession with least restrictive environment for those with disabilities. In other countries, you either keep up with the mainstream classes (with MINIMAL support, like maybe a dyslexia pullout) assuming a bit of differentiation (most of the time there would be core activities and advanced activities in any class) or you don't.
4) Way too lenient about behavioral issues. Not sure whether this is related to point 1 or 2 or 3 or some combination, but seems like every classroom in the US has some kid or kids with behavioral issues and that's really more the exception than the norm elsewhere. Teachers elsewhere can actually teach.
5) A ton of social problems. This is a can of worms so I don't even want to open it, but let's just say that this country has a lot of problems and they spill over into the schools.
6) Very limited illegal immigration elsewhere, and all migrants are expected to go to a special school to learn the language before being mainstreamed. No such thing as the teacher getting a bunch of surprise kids in 4th grade who can't keep up with grade level and have no idea how to speak the language.
7) TRACKING. This is a big one. Related to point 1 and 3, I guess. In other countries there is tracking and it's accepted as being the best for everyone overall. Sometimes exceptions can be made if a kid has particular passion but just missed the cutoff (whether that's up or down)... but that isn't related to how much the parents themselves push.
8) Teaching is a more respected profession. Higher requirements and also higher pay and expectations lead to higher results for kids and respect for teachers. Oh and parents generally stay out of it.
9) Greater respect for school property. A small thing, all things considered, but elsewhere I've noticed that school property (whether that's buildings, furniture, books and electronics and materials) seem to be cared for a bit better than I see here. I guess the cost of all of the damage and extra wear and tear adds up.
There are probably others, but they're the things I see off the top of my head.
Sorry, forgot another point:
10) Cost of college here is insane. Therefore every Bobby and Sue on the block are obsessed with Larla and Larlo both getting college scholarships. That isn't the case elsewhere.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:18
Subject: Re:Is our education system broken beyond repair?
I don't think it's broken beyond repair for a few reasons. One, some people do get good educations in public schools, so we have working examples. Two, some of the changes driving teachers out of the classroom are relatively recent, and ones that are policy based can be reversed. Three, at some level this is a "throw money at it" problem - yeah, it's tax money so that's not easy, but many schools don't have the nurses, counselors, art teachers, etc. who supported kids and classroom teachers that they did when i was a kid, nor the ability to pay great teachers to stay. Not saying these are easy problems, but it's not like it's hard to imagine the fixes.
I don't think education is the nswer to all social problems though. I don't expect schools to fix childhood trauma or poverty, for example.
I don't think education is the nswer to all social problems though. I don't expect schools to fix childhood trauma or poverty, for example.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:18
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:Because the US is not a small homogenous country. Because states have differing curriculums and schools are funded by property taxes which de facto segregates them. Many countries (Scandinavian mostly) don't have private schools (very very few ultra religious ones only) so there is no other choice but public.
Our educators have an uphill battle against poverty and many other factors which cannot be fixed inside a school.
I was going to write essentially the same thing. It’s the structure of our society that needs to be repaired, which is why I think education reform is a black hole that just sucks up time and money with no real results. Fix poverty, fix broken families, fix our capitalist structure that has decimated the middle class and created a nation of haves and have nots.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:16
Subject: Re:Is our education system broken beyond repair?
I'm not American, and I've lived on 3 continents. I see a few reasons:
1) An obsession with all kids going to college. The idea that the average kid from Idaho should go to university is ludicrous in pretty much every country except the US. There's really no shame in it around the world the way there is in the States. Related to this, the idea that someone who isn't all that academically inclined must have a disability. In other countries, there are kids who are smarter and not so smart and it's just the way it is. Parents can accept that their kids can have different abilities to others.
2) A ton of special needs. Not sure what the US is doing that every second kid has ADHD or Autism or some type of developmental disorder these days, but it's just not what I see in other countries.
3) An obsession with least restrictive environment for those with disabilities. In other countries, you either keep up with the mainstream classes (with MINIMAL support, like maybe a dyslexia pullout) assuming a bit of differentiation (most of the time there would be core activities and advanced activities in any class) or you don't.
4) Way too lenient about behavioral issues. Not sure whether this is related to point 1 or 2 or 3 or some combination, but seems like every classroom in the US has some kid or kids with behavioral issues and that's really more the exception than the norm elsewhere. Teachers elsewhere can actually teach.
5) A ton of social problems. This is a can of worms so I don't even want to open it, but let's just say that this country has a lot of problems and they spill over into the schools.
6) Very limited illegal immigration elsewhere, and all migrants are expected to go to a special school to learn the language before being mainstreamed. No such thing as the teacher getting a bunch of surprise kids in 4th grade who can't keep up with grade level and have no idea how to speak the language.
7) TRACKING. This is a big one. Related to point 1 and 3, I guess. In other countries there is tracking and it's accepted as being the best for everyone overall. Sometimes exceptions can be made if a kid has particular passion but just missed the cutoff (whether that's up or down)... but that isn't related to how much the parents themselves push.
8) Teaching is a more respected profession. Higher requirements and also higher pay and expectations lead to higher results for kids and respect for teachers. Oh and parents generally stay out of it.
9) Greater respect for school property. A small thing, all things considered, but elsewhere I've noticed that school property (whether that's buildings, furniture, books and electronics and materials) seem to be cared for a bit better than I see here. I guess the cost of all of the damage and extra wear and tear adds up.
There are probably others, but they're the things I see off the top of my head.
1) An obsession with all kids going to college. The idea that the average kid from Idaho should go to university is ludicrous in pretty much every country except the US. There's really no shame in it around the world the way there is in the States. Related to this, the idea that someone who isn't all that academically inclined must have a disability. In other countries, there are kids who are smarter and not so smart and it's just the way it is. Parents can accept that their kids can have different abilities to others.
2) A ton of special needs. Not sure what the US is doing that every second kid has ADHD or Autism or some type of developmental disorder these days, but it's just not what I see in other countries.
3) An obsession with least restrictive environment for those with disabilities. In other countries, you either keep up with the mainstream classes (with MINIMAL support, like maybe a dyslexia pullout) assuming a bit of differentiation (most of the time there would be core activities and advanced activities in any class) or you don't.
4) Way too lenient about behavioral issues. Not sure whether this is related to point 1 or 2 or 3 or some combination, but seems like every classroom in the US has some kid or kids with behavioral issues and that's really more the exception than the norm elsewhere. Teachers elsewhere can actually teach.
5) A ton of social problems. This is a can of worms so I don't even want to open it, but let's just say that this country has a lot of problems and they spill over into the schools.
6) Very limited illegal immigration elsewhere, and all migrants are expected to go to a special school to learn the language before being mainstreamed. No such thing as the teacher getting a bunch of surprise kids in 4th grade who can't keep up with grade level and have no idea how to speak the language.
7) TRACKING. This is a big one. Related to point 1 and 3, I guess. In other countries there is tracking and it's accepted as being the best for everyone overall. Sometimes exceptions can be made if a kid has particular passion but just missed the cutoff (whether that's up or down)... but that isn't related to how much the parents themselves push.
8) Teaching is a more respected profession. Higher requirements and also higher pay and expectations lead to higher results for kids and respect for teachers. Oh and parents generally stay out of it.
9) Greater respect for school property. A small thing, all things considered, but elsewhere I've noticed that school property (whether that's buildings, furniture, books and electronics and materials) seem to be cared for a bit better than I see here. I guess the cost of all of the damage and extra wear and tear adds up.
There are probably others, but they're the things I see off the top of my head.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:12
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
According to this article, education in the US is about the same as it was decades ago.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/04/07/what-international-test-scores-reveal-about-american-education/
NCLB neither improved nor ruined education.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/04/07/what-international-test-scores-reveal-about-american-education/
NCLB neither improved nor ruined education.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 17:04
Subject: Re:Is our education system broken beyond repair?
It is a system in disrepair. Is it beyond repair? I don't know.
Today I took a survey for the NEA. I've belonged to the VEA and NEA for 20+ years. I was appalled at the obvious bias of the survey. All of the questions were about politics and issues that are NOT related to education policies and topics. By the end I was answering with the most extreme responses just to see what would happen. When they asked who I voted for President in 2016 I lied and answered Trump. The survey ended.
My point is that this is the national organization for teachers and even they don't want to hear what teachers have to say. They have an agenda and they're sticking to it. Until they get more focused on what is happening in classrooms, and much less focused on their egos and wanting to be a powerhouse in American politics, we're really and truly going into the toilet. No wonder no one is listening to what teachers say. Even our teacher associations don't want to hear from us.
BTW I now change my answer. Yes, we are beyond repair.
Today I took a survey for the NEA. I've belonged to the VEA and NEA for 20+ years. I was appalled at the obvious bias of the survey. All of the questions were about politics and issues that are NOT related to education policies and topics. By the end I was answering with the most extreme responses just to see what would happen. When they asked who I voted for President in 2016 I lied and answered Trump. The survey ended.
My point is that this is the national organization for teachers and even they don't want to hear what teachers have to say. They have an agenda and they're sticking to it. Until they get more focused on what is happening in classrooms, and much less focused on their egos and wanting to be a powerhouse in American politics, we're really and truly going into the toilet. No wonder no one is listening to what teachers say. Even our teacher associations don't want to hear from us.
BTW I now change my answer. Yes, we are beyond repair.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 16:47
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Because the US is not a small homogenous country. Because states have differing curriculums and schools are funded by property taxes which de facto segregates them. Many countries (Scandinavian mostly) don't have private schools (very very few ultra religious ones only) so there is no other choice but public.
Our educators have an uphill battle against poverty and many other factors which cannot be fixed inside a school.
Our educators have an uphill battle against poverty and many other factors which cannot be fixed inside a school.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 16:42
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Because Americans group all students in the same "college prep" track.
I used to live in France, where there are programs for kids who will not go to university -- they can get trained in technical fields and get internships in their field. There are different programs for university-bound kids. The system isn't perfect, but it groups kids of similar ability levels and interests together.
Here, "everyone must go to college" according to local school districts. It is ridiculous.
This is the wrong takeaway. The US administers the PISA test to a broad population of high- and low-performing students and schools in all states where other countries only select high-performing students and schools.
no that's the exact right takeaway. For anyone below grade level high school/college prep is a waste of time. These students have no business taking chemistry for example. Instead set them up for success in life with real tangible skills to get jobs after graduation or to go to specialized internships or 2 year degree programs.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 16:14
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:Because Americans group all students in the same "college prep" track.
I used to live in France, where there are programs for kids who will not go to university -- they can get trained in technical fields and get internships in their field. There are different programs for university-bound kids. The system isn't perfect, but it groups kids of similar ability levels and interests together.
Here, "everyone must go to college" according to local school districts. It is ridiculous.
This is the wrong takeaway. The US administers the PISA test to a broad population of high- and low-performing students and schools in all states where other countries only select high-performing students and schools.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 15:43
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
That Pisa chart is old. Check out the 2015 one. 14 was a good spot on that old chart.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 15:27
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Anonymous wrote:Because Americans group all students in the same "college prep" track.
I used to live in France, where there are programs for kids who will not go to university -- they can get trained in technical fields and get internships in their field. There are different programs for university-bound kids. The system isn't perfect, but it groups kids of similar ability levels and interests together.
Here, "everyone must go to college" according to local school districts. It is ridiculous.
Because vocational programs were abused in the past. My dad was an engineer. In 1954, he should have been able to legally attend the Polytechnic College which has engineering classes as well as college prep. Instead, he was sent to the vocational school which traditionally educated lower class whites in the A.M. and “Negroes” in the PM. They didn’t offer engineering. The closest my dad could get was electrician. He then served in Vietnam and was finally able to take engineering classes.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 14:56
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
Because Americans group all students in the same "college prep" track.
I used to live in France, where there are programs for kids who will not go to university -- they can get trained in technical fields and get internships in their field. There are different programs for university-bound kids. The system isn't perfect, but it groups kids of similar ability levels and interests together.
Here, "everyone must go to college" according to local school districts. It is ridiculous.
I used to live in France, where there are programs for kids who will not go to university -- they can get trained in technical fields and get internships in their field. There are different programs for university-bound kids. The system isn't perfect, but it groups kids of similar ability levels and interests together.
Here, "everyone must go to college" according to local school districts. It is ridiculous.
Anonymous
06/18/2019 14:25
Subject: Is our education system broken beyond repair?
I hear so many stories of young teachers quitting our public schools after a few years.
https://www.upworthy.com/celebrated-teachers-5-point-explanation-of-why-shes-quitting?utm_source=The+Upworthiest&utm_campaign=bed4e91bbb-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_12_08_03_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78f827fba6-bed4e91bbb-238345225
Paying the most per student in the world, we rank 14th on the PISA.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
Why can't we figure out a way to reform our system so it works for more teachers and students?
https://www.upworthy.com/celebrated-teachers-5-point-explanation-of-why-shes-quitting?utm_source=The+Upworthiest&utm_campaign=bed4e91bbb-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_06_12_08_03_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78f827fba6-bed4e91bbb-238345225
Paying the most per student in the world, we rank 14th on the PISA.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
Why can't we figure out a way to reform our system so it works for more teachers and students?