Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

We don't actually know that. From the information available, it is likely that Caster Semenya is intersex. This is only being discussed because Caster Semenya competes at the highest level of athletics, and is exceptional. It is unfortunate that women are at such a physical disadvantage generally, that whenever someone is phenomenal there is a suspicion that they may not be a biological woman. There are some unfortunate facts of biological life, and women generally being at an athletic disadvantage is one of them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Michael Phelps competes against anyone, male or female. Caster is competing against women, who have XX chromosomes. She could compete against XY people, and no one would object.

The IAAF, which made the ruling, didn't say boo about chromosomes, so I don't know why you are bringing it up. And the IAAF may even actually know what chromosomes Caster Semenya has - unlike you.

Really? No idea why it might be relevant at all?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Michael Phelps competes against anyone, male or female. Caster is competing against women, who have XX chromosomes. She could compete against XY people, and no one would object.

The IAAF, which made the ruling, didn't say boo about chromosomes, so I don't know why you are bringing it up. And the IAAF may even actually know what chromosomes Caster Semenya has - unlike you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Michael Phelps competes against anyone, male or female. Caster is competing against women, who have XX chromosomes. She could compete against XY people, and no one would object.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

You can't ignore the fact that Michael Phelps has [whatever medical condition that gives him long arms, big floppy feet, and a weird metabolism]. It matters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

You can't ignore the fact she's intersex. It matters.

Anonymous wrote:There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

No, that's not what they determined. What they determined is that she's a woman whose testosterone levels are higher than they will allow for women competing at distances between 400 m and 1 mile.

There's a very simple question with a very complicated answer: For the purposes of athletic competition, you have to determine where the line is between men and women. (This is a very different question than in most areas, where I believe anyone should be able to decided whether they are a man or woman.) I don't know the answer. From what I've read, the science is very unsure about what exact biological characteristics contributes to the male advantage (which is very consistently about 10 percent faster for all running and endurance sports), and the recent decision very well may be premature.

However, this article gets into more detail:

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

One interesting fact: " the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people. ... [but] it’s believed that all three of the medallists in the 2016 Olympic women’s 800 – Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui — are intersex."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

She’s intersex. I don’t think she’s publicly commented on it, but I believe it’s assumed she has a condition where her genes are XY, she has internal testes, and no ovaries or uterus. It’s insane to have this conversation without acknowledging that component.

She's a woman, and you're speculating about her medical condition without any information (which she doesn't owe you or anybody else anyway).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

She’s intersex. I don’t think she’s publicly commented on it, but I believe it’s assumed she has a condition where her genes are XY, she has internal testes, and no ovaries or uterus. It’s insane to have this conversation without acknowledging that component.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sports are supposed to be an area where physical prowess and excellence are supposed to be the only measure of success. We rightly ban people who are doping or otherwise seeking an unfair advantage in competition. However, should we be banning people because they happen to have a naturally occurring talent or physical attribute that gives them an advantage? Is the ruling against Caster Semenya sexist?

"No one is concerned about male athletes with unusually high, naturally occurring testosterone. Taking hormones out of the equation, there are a host of biological advantages that some athletes enjoy over others. Nordic skier Eero Mäntyranta, for example, had a genetic condition that caused the excessive production of red blood cells, giving him an advantage in endurance events. Michael Phelps’ unique and optimally shaped swimming body allows him to cut through the water with remarkable speed and efficiency. No one suggests these men should muzzle their assets."

http://theconversation.com/caster-semenyas-impossible-situation-testosterone-gets-special-scrutiny-but-doesnt-necessarily-make-her-faster-116407

YES to the bolded. Emphatically YES. I do not think it is part of a Harrison Bergeron moment, however. I think it is a extension of the racist and sexist soup that we all swim in every day.

I do too.

Anonymous wrote:Sports are supposed to be an area where physical prowess and excellence are supposed to be the only measure of success. We rightly ban people who are doping or otherwise seeking an unfair advantage in competition. However, should we be banning people because they happen to have a naturally occurring talent or physical attribute that gives them an advantage? Is the ruling against Caster Semenya sexist?

"No one is concerned about male athletes with unusually high, naturally occurring testosterone. Taking hormones out of the equation, there are a host of biological advantages that some athletes enjoy over others. Nordic skier Eero Mäntyranta, for example, had a genetic condition that caused the excessive production of red blood cells, giving him an advantage in endurance events. Michael Phelps’ unique and optimally shaped swimming body allows him to cut through the water with remarkable speed and efficiency. No one suggests these men should muzzle their assets."

http://theconversation.com/caster-semenyas-impossible-situation-testosterone-gets-special-scrutiny-but-doesnt-necessarily-make-her-faster-116407

YES to the bolded. Emphatically YES. I do not think it is part of a Harrison Bergeron moment, however. I think it is a extension of the racist and sexist soup that we all swim in every day.

Anonymous wrote:Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

How is that relevant? Caster Semenya is a woman. Should women be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Should men be allowed to compete against women in women's sports?

Disorders of sexual development can be devastating. Especially since they're often hidden and many societies are very uncomfortable with it, leaving people without an understanding of what's going on. I understand that often people with DSDs don't even find out until something goes wrong later in life (such as trying to figure out why puberty isn't going as expected, or they aren't able to have children).

There is no easy answer here. Reasonable people can see harm happening no matter what the decision is.

Sports are supposed to be an area where physical prowess and excellence are supposed to be the only measure of success. We rightly ban people who are doping or otherwise seeking an unfair advantage in competition. However, should we be banning people because they happen to have a naturally occurring talent or physical attribute that gives them an advantage? Is the ruling against Caster Semenya sexist?

"No one is concerned about male athletes with unusually high, naturally occurring testosterone. Taking hormones out of the equation, there are a host of biological advantages that some athletes enjoy over others. Nordic skier Eero Mäntyranta, for example, had a genetic condition that caused the excessive production of red blood cells, giving him an advantage in endurance events. Michael Phelps’ unique and optimally shaped swimming body allows him to cut through the water with remarkable speed and efficiency. No one suggests these men should muzzle their assets."

http://theconversation.com/caster-semenyas-impossible-situation-testosterone-gets-special-scrutiny-but-doesnt-necessarily-make-her-faster-116407