Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"As of 2006, over 24 million Americans play soccer. There are 4.2 million players (2.5 million male and 1.7 million female) registered with U.S. Soccer. As of 2012, thirty percent of American households contain someone playing soccer, a figure second only to baseball." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States

"A Gallup poll released last week found that 7% of Americans named soccer as their favorite sport to watch in a survey completed during December. While that may not sound like much, the figure represents a significant, three-percentage-point gain from just four years ago. Soccer is the only sport to post such a large increase. Football (37%, down from 39%), basketball (11%, down from 12%) and baseball (9%, down from 13%) all showed declining numbers. Hockey was at 4%, up from 3%." https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbondy/2018/01/08/soccer-will-soon-be-americas-third-favorite-spectator-sport/#7f87c5cc3c53

Population of the US - 325 mn. That means soccer is the favorite sport of 22.75 mn Americans (325 * .07).

In other words, there are more Americans into soccer than the entire population of countries like Chile (18 mn), Netherlands (17 mn), Belgium (12 mn), Portugal (10 mn), Sweden (10 mn), Serbia (9 mn), Costa Rica (5 mn), Croatia (4 mn) and Uruguay (3.5 mn). http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Yet all those countries have open soccer markets, with independent clubs competing to get promoted or avoid relegation. And all of those countries have fully funded youth academies, in many cases even in their lower divisions. How many 2nd, 3rd or 4th division clubs in the U.S. even have a youth academy at all, let alone a fully funded one. Yet in Europe and SA it is common.

Just because you have folks that say soccer is their favorite sport doesn't mean they are willing to pay to see a match. Most of the total soccer watching revenue here is in the MLS, and the revenue there is only 2% of the total revenue spread across the ten leagues above them. That means there is 50x more revenue in those top ten. And there are many more leagues with less revenue abroad that aren't counted there. So we have a massive population who say soccer is their favorite, but nobody pays to see it. It all boils down to revenue when it comes to the ability to support youth academies. You want academies, go see a soccer game.

Wrong again. MLS accounts for only 6% of soccer watching in the U.S. http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/04/19/mls-tv-ratings-concern-given-account-just-6-soccer-tv-viewing/.

It's not soccer that's unpopular here, it's the MLS.

Still, as posted earlier, MLS revenues are almost double that of the Dutch 1st Division.

You are making my point. The MLS, much less any second or third tier teams here cannot attract viewers. No revenue, no youth academy system at the level of the european academies.

MLS is predominately a summer league which is generally a televised sports wasteland.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"As of 2006, over 24 million Americans play soccer. There are 4.2 million players (2.5 million male and 1.7 million female) registered with U.S. Soccer. As of 2012, thirty percent of American households contain someone playing soccer, a figure second only to baseball." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States

"A Gallup poll released last week found that 7% of Americans named soccer as their favorite sport to watch in a survey completed during December. While that may not sound like much, the figure represents a significant, three-percentage-point gain from just four years ago. Soccer is the only sport to post such a large increase. Football (37%, down from 39%), basketball (11%, down from 12%) and baseball (9%, down from 13%) all showed declining numbers. Hockey was at 4%, up from 3%." https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbondy/2018/01/08/soccer-will-soon-be-americas-third-favorite-spectator-sport/#7f87c5cc3c53

Population of the US - 325 mn. That means soccer is the favorite sport of 22.75 mn Americans (325 * .07).

In other words, there are more Americans into soccer than the entire population of countries like Chile (18 mn), Netherlands (17 mn), Belgium (12 mn), Portugal (10 mn), Sweden (10 mn), Serbia (9 mn), Costa Rica (5 mn), Croatia (4 mn) and Uruguay (3.5 mn). http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Yet all those countries have open soccer markets, with independent clubs competing to get promoted or avoid relegation. And all of those countries have fully funded youth academies, in many cases even in their lower divisions. How many 2nd, 3rd or 4th division clubs in the U.S. even have a youth academy at all, let alone a fully funded one. Yet in Europe and SA it is common.

Just because you have folks that say soccer is their favorite sport doesn't mean they are willing to pay to see a match. Most of the total soccer watching revenue here is in the MLS, and the revenue there is only 2% of the total revenue spread across the ten leagues above them. That means there is 50x more revenue in those top ten. And there are many more leagues with less revenue abroad that aren't counted there. So we have a massive population who say soccer is their favorite, but nobody pays to see it. It all boils down to revenue when it comes to the ability to support youth academies. You want academies, go see a soccer game.

Wrong again. MLS accounts for only 6% of soccer watching in the U.S. http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/04/19/mls-tv-ratings-concern-given-account-just-6-soccer-tv-viewing/.

It's not soccer that's unpopular here, it's the MLS.

Still, as posted earlier, MLS revenues are almost double that of the Dutch 1st Division.

You are making my point. The MLS, much less any second or third tier teams here cannot attract viewers. No revenue, no youth academy system at the level of the european academies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
"As of 2006, over 24 million Americans play soccer. There are 4.2 million players (2.5 million male and 1.7 million female) registered with U.S. Soccer. As of 2012, thirty percent of American households contain someone playing soccer, a figure second only to baseball." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States

"A Gallup poll released last week found that 7% of Americans named soccer as their favorite sport to watch in a survey completed during December. While that may not sound like much, the figure represents a significant, three-percentage-point gain from just four years ago. Soccer is the only sport to post such a large increase. Football (37%, down from 39%), basketball (11%, down from 12%) and baseball (9%, down from 13%) all showed declining numbers. Hockey was at 4%, up from 3%." https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbondy/2018/01/08/soccer-will-soon-be-americas-third-favorite-spectator-sport/#7f87c5cc3c53

Population of the US - 325 mn. That means soccer is the favorite sport of 22.75 mn Americans (325 * .07).

In other words, there are more Americans into soccer than the entire population of countries like Chile (18 mn), Netherlands (17 mn), Belgium (12 mn), Portugal (10 mn), Sweden (10 mn), Serbia (9 mn), Costa Rica (5 mn), Croatia (4 mn) and Uruguay (3.5 mn). http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Yet all those countries have open soccer markets, with independent clubs competing to get promoted or avoid relegation. And all of those countries have fully funded youth academies, in many cases even in their lower divisions. How many 2nd, 3rd or 4th division clubs in the U.S. even have a youth academy at all, let alone a fully funded one. Yet in Europe and SA it is common.

Just because you have folks that say soccer is their favorite sport doesn't mean they are willing to pay to see a match. Most of the total soccer watching revenue here is in the MLS, and the revenue there is only 2% of the total revenue spread across the ten leagues above them. That means there is 50x more revenue in those top ten. And there are many more leagues with less revenue abroad that aren't counted there. So we have a massive population who say soccer is their favorite, but nobody pays to see it. It all boils down to revenue when it comes to the ability to support youth academies. You want academies, go see a soccer game.

Wrong again. MLS accounts for only 6% of soccer watching in the U.S. http://worldsoccertalk.com/2018/04/19/mls-tv-ratings-concern-given-account-just-6-soccer-tv-viewing/.

It's not soccer that's unpopular here, it's the MLS.

Still, as posted earlier, MLS revenues are almost double that of the Dutch 1st Division.

Anonymous wrote:
"As of 2006, over 24 million Americans play soccer. There are 4.2 million players (2.5 million male and 1.7 million female) registered with U.S. Soccer. As of 2012, thirty percent of American households contain someone playing soccer, a figure second only to baseball." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States

"A Gallup poll released last week found that 7% of Americans named soccer as their favorite sport to watch in a survey completed during December. While that may not sound like much, the figure represents a significant, three-percentage-point gain from just four years ago. Soccer is the only sport to post such a large increase. Football (37%, down from 39%), basketball (11%, down from 12%) and baseball (9%, down from 13%) all showed declining numbers. Hockey was at 4%, up from 3%." https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbondy/2018/01/08/soccer-will-soon-be-americas-third-favorite-spectator-sport/#7f87c5cc3c53

Population of the US - 325 mn. That means soccer is the favorite sport of 22.75 mn Americans (325 * .07).

In other words, there are more Americans into soccer than the entire population of countries like Chile (18 mn), Netherlands (17 mn), Belgium (12 mn), Portugal (10 mn), Sweden (10 mn), Serbia (9 mn), Costa Rica (5 mn), Croatia (4 mn) and Uruguay (3.5 mn). http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Yet all those countries have open soccer markets, with independent clubs competing to get promoted or avoid relegation. And all of those countries have fully funded youth academies, in many cases even in their lower divisions. How many 2nd, 3rd or 4th division clubs in the U.S. even have a youth academy at all, let alone a fully funded one. Yet in Europe and SA it is common.

Just because you have folks that say soccer is their favorite sport doesn't mean they are willing to pay to see a match. Most of the total soccer watching revenue here is in the MLS, and the revenue there is only 2% of the total revenue spread across the ten leagues above them. That means there is 50x more revenue in those top ten. And there are many more leagues with less revenue abroad that aren't counted there. So we have a massive population who say soccer is their favorite, but nobody pays to see it. It all boils down to revenue when it comes to the ability to support youth academies. You want academies, go see a soccer game.

Anonymous wrote:Look at how we value basketball in the US, it's sacred and embedded in the culture. NBA All star game? March Madness? The Jordan Era? NBA Jam? Street ball culture? Celebrity status NBA players? Now substitute "Basketball" for "Soccer", and that's how other countries view it.

Go start shooting hoops in the Netherlands at a public basketball court, if you can even find one, and eventually you will be kicked off by the 30 people who want to play soccer on the court.

Of the 325 mn American population, 43 mn are foreign born. This includes about 20 mn from Latin America and the Caribean, 4 mn from the Mideast and Africa, almost 12 mn from Asia, and a couple million from Eastern Europe. With a few significant exceptions (India, Cuba), most of those are places where soccer comes first. And that's only counting those who were born abroad. To understand the full size of the soccer-first demographic in this country, you have to include their kids.

But you're right, we'll never be able to compete with the Croatias and Uruguays of the world (combined pop < 8 mn) until soccer is as popular as basketball here. It has nothing to do with how we do things, and by no means is the US Soccer Federation in any way to blame.

Anonymous wrote:Facilities. Ok, sorry for this long link:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/German+International+School+Washington+D.C./@39.0114018,-77.1785374,117m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x1d846fb0e516d38e!8m2!3d39.010847!4d-77.17757

This is the German School located in Potomac, MD. I have been a substitute teacher there a couple of times. They actually have a small soccer field that is part of the campus, and every single day, all the boys at the school play soccer for their entire recess.

Many of them also play on local travel teams, and then a lot of them just play for fun. They take it very seriously, even just playing at lunch time. You're talking a large percentage of the boys in every grade, not just a few kids. They are following the Bundesliga and wearing jerseys to school all the time, and it's serious to them.

Why doesn't every elementary school in the DC Metro area have a turf soccer pitch out back? Well, it's not part of the culture enough to be deemed important enough. Yet, we have basketball courts at EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL, EVERYWHERE.

In Europe, they do have these small soccer "courts" that are the same size as a basketball court, but with goals on either end, so you have kids playing 4v4, 5v5, 6v6, whatever all of the time when they aren't in school. 11 year old kids aren't going to run around a full sized soccer field chasing a ball, but they will play on a smaller sized field.

In Europe, you can probably walk a mile or less to get to some public area where people gather to play soccer. You can do the same here to find a pickup basketball game, but for soccer you have to drive somewhere, which makes it less accessible for the masses.

In the suburbs of the DMV, you have to drive somewhere to do anything, but there are far more kids playing pickup soccer than basketball (not a lot of either, TBF, neither can compete with SC and video games). My kids go to public schools and soccer has always been the most popular sport at recess.

Cultural attitudes are hard/slow to change. India's #1 sport is cricket... not ever gonna change.

Look at how we value basketball in the US, it's sacred and embedded in the culture. NBA All star game? March Madness? The Jordan Era? NBA Jam? Street ball culture? Celebrity status NBA players? Now substitute "Basketball" for "Soccer", and that's how other countries view it.

Go start shooting hoops in the Netherlands at a public basketball court, if you can even find one, and eventually you will be kicked off by the 30 people who want to play soccer on the court.

Facilities. Ok, sorry for this long link:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/German+International+School+Washington+D.C./@39.0114018,-77.1785374,117m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x1d846fb0e516d38e!8m2!3d39.010847!4d-77.17757

This is the German School located in Potomac, MD. I have been a substitute teacher there a couple of times. They actually have a small soccer field that is part of the campus, and every single day, all the boys at the school play soccer for their entire recess.

Many of them also play on local travel teams, and then a lot of them just play for fun. They take it very seriously, even just playing at lunch time. You're talking a large percentage of the boys in every grade, not just a few kids. They are following the Bundesliga and wearing jerseys to school all the time, and it's serious to them.

Why doesn't every elementary school in the DC Metro area have a turf soccer pitch out back? Well, it's not part of the culture enough to be deemed important enough. Yet, we have basketball courts at EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL, EVERYWHERE.

In Europe, they do have these small soccer "courts" that are the same size as a basketball court, but with goals on either end, so you have kids playing 4v4, 5v5, 6v6, whatever all of the time when they aren't in school. 11 year old kids aren't going to run around a full sized soccer field chasing a ball, but they will play on a smaller sized field.

In Europe, you can probably walk a mile or less to get to some public area where people gather to play soccer. You can do the same here to find a pickup basketball game, but for soccer you have to drive somewhere, which makes it less accessible for the masses.

Facts are always helpful.

"As of 2006, over 24 million Americans play soccer. There are 4.2 million players (2.5 million male and 1.7 million female) registered with U.S. Soccer. As of 2012, thirty percent of American households contain someone playing soccer, a figure second only to baseball." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States

"A Gallup poll released last week found that 7% of Americans named soccer as their favorite sport to watch in a survey completed during December. While that may not sound like much, the figure represents a significant, three-percentage-point gain from just four years ago. Soccer is the only sport to post such a large increase. Football (37%, down from 39%), basketball (11%, down from 12%) and baseball (9%, down from 13%) all showed declining numbers. Hockey was at 4%, up from 3%." https://www.forbes.com/sites/filipbondy/2018/01/08/soccer-will-soon-be-americas-third-favorite-spectator-sport/#7f87c5cc3c53

Population of the US - 325 mn. That means soccer is the favorite sport of 22.75 mn Americans (325 * .07).

In other words, there are more Americans into soccer than the entire population of countries like Chile (18 mn), Netherlands (17 mn), Belgium (12 mn), Portugal (10 mn), Sweden (10 mn), Serbia (9 mn), Costa Rica (5 mn), Croatia (4 mn) and Uruguay (3.5 mn). http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

Yet all those countries have open soccer markets, with independent clubs competing to get promoted or avoid relegation. And all of those countries have fully funded youth academies, in many cases even in their lower divisions. How many 2nd, 3rd or 4th division clubs in the U.S. even have a youth academy at all, let alone a fully funded one. Yet in Europe and SA it is common.

It is the absence of pro/rel that cripples the lower divisions in U.S. Soccer, not the other way around. Without the opportunity for promotion, there is little incentive to invest.


Calling the EPL "just one league in Europe" is more than a little misleading. The kid who is the subject of this thread is at AZ Alkmaar not Arsenal. AZ is a mid-table team in Holland's 1st division. They are in a city of 110,000, surrounded by picturesque Dutch countryside, not jam-packed suburbs. Their stadium holds less than 18,000. They don't have a huge TV deal. The revenue of the Eredevise as a whole is about 1/2 of MLS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue#), and that's not considering the $150 mn per team MLS owners have to pay now to even get into the league.

Yet is there even one club in this entire country that puts the level of investment into their youth players that Aethan's dad describes?

Anonymous wrote:There is tons of public interest and $$$ in the game in this country. If there was no interest, parents would not be ponying up thousands of dollars for the current pay to play system. Our youth development system is a mess because we lack an open professional league that consists of independent clubs.

It is the interest and $$ in professional leagues that drives the academy system in Europe. Have a look at the link below to see how the MLS compares in terms of revenue compared to leagues in Europe. An MLS club's revenue is 1/10th of the average EPL club. And that is just one league in Europe! So no, there is very little money in pro soccer here, relatively speaking. No money == no layered system of professional leagues that drives the formation of funded academies as they have in Europe.

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2018/06/12/mls-will-imminently-join-worlds-top-10-leagues-by-revenue-120601/

Our system is "upside down" in this respect. We have parents who have little interest in MLS pro soccer, but they are interested in their children, so we fund it from the bottom up. We miss alot of good players who cannot afford it, this is a characteristic of our system.

There is tons of public interest and $$$ in the game in this country. If there was no interest, parents would not be ponying up thousands of dollars for the current pay to play system. Our youth development system is a mess because we lack an open professional league that consists of independent clubs.

Anonymous wrote:There is often a lot of talk on this forum and elsewhere, about the differences between youth soccer in Europe vs the US. Most of it is very misinformed. I saw this on twitter over the weekend and thought it would be useful to share here. This is from Daniel Yohanes, who's son Aethan ('04) grew up in Springfield but now is with 1st division Dutch club AZ Alkmaar.

https://twitter.com/D_Yohannes/status/1084238949428678657?s=09

An interesting case for sure, and happy to hear of his success. I think it is worthwhile to contrast the European environment to here, but I don't think anyone should waste too much energy lamenting our system, or bashing it. That sort of energy is wasted because there are some fundamental reasons why a system in which clubs see players as assets will not work here. Until the sport achieves a greater level of public interest (and hence $) such that we can have layers and layers of self funded academies, our system will remain pay to play. We have to find a way to live within that for the foreseeable future.

Nice read, thanks

There is often a lot of talk on this forum and elsewhere, about the differences between youth soccer in Europe vs the US. Most of it is very misinformed. I saw this on twitter over the weekend and thought it would be useful to share here. This is from Daniel Yohanes, who's son Aethan ('04) grew up in Springfield but now is with 1st division Dutch club AZ Alkmaar.

https://twitter.com/D_Yohannes/status/1084238949428678657?s=09