Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

OP here and you are me. This is why this is so hard for me to watch. When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes and my strength was math. 99th percentile on every standardized test, high IQ, math competitions, etc. But more than that, I wrongly assumed that being "smart" meant having things come easily to you. Not working for it.

Fast forward to adulthood and I see that I couldn't have been more wrong. Hard work, determination, resilience. Getting up after falling down. Helping others. These are the hallmarks of a great human being.

I have worked her whole life for her not to repeat my mistakes. I have praised her since she was little for being a hard worker, because things don't come easily to her. I have told her about countless people I knew in life who possess the same great characteristics that she has. Who have become world leaders, top athletes and musicians because things DIDN'T come easily to them and they DIDN'T give up when it got hard. Which I *always* did and still tend to do to this day if I don't catch myself and self-correct.

I desperately want her to believe me when I tell her that she is SO MUCH BETTER than I could ever be. That because she works hard and gets up after falling down, she will have MORE success in life than someone like me, who never had to try hard for anything. But she just doesn't see it. She just sees the negatives. She just doesn't get it.

I thank you so much for your response and I hope that someday this message will get through to her.

NP. She is living her life. Your words, telling her about your experiences and what you think you should have known, will not change her.

Childlhood isn't easy, middle school and high school aren't easy. You can't solve this for her.

OP here: I know you are right. That is the hardest part. I wish I could or at least take away her pain. It is hard to see your child suffer.

Anonymous wrote:You are telling her and reinforcing the idea that people have set abilities in math. You are upset that the school has a STEM focus that "overemphasizes her weakness in math". If she is able to get 100's on many assignments, she has the cognitive ability to do well in her level of math (which is not the most rigorous for her grade). You are sabotaging her by your words and actions.
I am not Asian but grew up with many kids whose parents were from Korea and China. They all did well in math. By the end of high school I realized that it wasn't that they were all innately better in math. The ones who were didn't have to work hard and the ones who didn't worked hard. Their parents got the textbooks the summer before and they worked all the problems in the book. Or they had tutors, or went to extra math classes in the evenings, or they grew up going to Kumon so they were really good at rote problem solving and could focus on conceptual learning during class because they already had the skills and automaticity to solve problems.
I now do the same thing with my kids. Teachers assume they are innately gifted in math. They get positive feedback from teachers. In reality, math does not come so easily to my oldest so he has to work harder than my youngest kid.
So you can go get a therapist to help her feel good about struggling in math or you can go get her math tutoring and continue tutoring her winter break and summer so she feels good about doing well in math.

OP here and I see where you are coming from. I have often told both of my kids that while yes, some people do have innate abilities to problem solve and excel at math, others have to work hard just like many, many people do and this is in no way a failure but, rather, a success (in my eyes - based on my previous post about how I used to think I was "better" at math just because I got the concepts quicker than others). I think she does not see this because her self-selected peer group happens to be comprised of most of the tippy top math students (they share common interests in other subjects - that is why they are friends). I did not think that she needed a tutor since she was not struggling to grasp the concepts or failing in any way. She is just not on the advanced math track. But you are right - if she is having this low self-esteem problem because of this then why not try to beef up her math a bit and build up her confidence instead of just writing it off as a "weakness". I appreciate your perspective - thank you.

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like math isn't a huge weakness, just not her main strength. Bs in math are in the normal spectrum and if she's in a in a math-heavy school they probably put her above average. Can you point to high standardized test scores to prove your point?

At the same time, I think I might not tell her to focus on her strengths, but rather get her tutoring (or have her do Khan Academy) for weaknesses. It sounds like she would be motivated to do this, and you want her to keep her options open for the future. (Too many girls/women claim they "cant' do math" and this really limits what types of careers they try.)

OP here: I am one of those women who advocate for more girls in STEM, so I always reassure her that yes, while math might not come as easily to her as it does to some of her peers, this is still not really as much of a weakness as just not an innate strength. If she were failing math, I would call it a weakness and get her a tutor. But she understands it and does relatively well in it. As you point out, she is average to above-average at the national/state/district level on the MAP and PARCC tests. But since she is not 1 or 2 grades above in advanced math classes, she feels she is "terrible at it". Which, objectively, she is not otherwise she'd be getting Cs and Ds or doing terribly on the standardized tests.

Regardless, as you and some other posters have pointed out, maybe even though she is not failing math or struggling with the concepts, it would help to have a tutor just to be a third-party person there to go over homework with her and say "yes, you got it" or "why don't we work on that type of problem a little bit more to build up your math skills in that area?". I like your suggestion and I appreciate your reply.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

OP here and you are me. This is why this is so hard for me to watch. When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes and my strength was math. 99th percentile on every standardized test, high IQ, math competitions, etc. But more than that, I wrongly assumed that being "smart" meant having things come easily to you. Not working for it.

Fast forward to adulthood and I see that I couldn't have been more wrong. Hard work, determination, resilience. Getting up after falling down. Helping others. These are the hallmarks of a great human being.

I have worked her whole life for her not to repeat my mistakes. I have praised her since she was little for being a hard worker, because things don't come easily to her. I have told her about countless people I knew in life who possess the same great characteristics that she has. Who have become world leaders, top athletes and musicians because things DIDN'T come easily to them and they DIDN'T give up when it got hard. Which I *always* did and still tend to do to this day if I don't catch myself and self-correct.

I desperately want her to believe me when I tell her that she is SO MUCH BETTER than I could ever be. That because she works hard and gets up after falling down, she will have MORE success in life than someone like me, who never had to try hard for anything. But she just doesn't see it. She just sees the negatives. She just doesn't get it.

I thank you so much for your response and I hope that someday this message will get through to her.

NP. She is living her life. Your words, telling her about your experiences and what you think you should have known, will not change her.

Childlhood isn't easy, middle school and high school aren't easy. You can't solve this for her.

You are telling her and reinforcing the idea that people have set abilities in math. You are upset that the school has a STEM focus that "overemphasizes her weakness in math". If she is able to get 100's on many assignments, she has the cognitive ability to do well in her level of math (which is not the most rigorous for her grade). You are sabotaging her by your words and actions.
I am not Asian but grew up with many kids whose parents were from Korea and China. They all did well in math. By the end of high school I realized that it wasn't that they were all innately better in math. The ones who were didn't have to work hard and the ones who didn't worked hard. Their parents got the textbooks the summer before and they worked all the problems in the book. Or they had tutors, or went to extra math classes in the evenings, or they grew up going to Kumon so they were really good at rote problem solving and could focus on conceptual learning during class because they already had the skills and automaticity to solve problems.
I now do the same thing with my kids. Teachers assume they are innately gifted in math. They get positive feedback from teachers. In reality, math does not come so easily to my oldest so he has to work harder than my youngest kid.
So you can go get a therapist to help her feel good about struggling in math or you can go get her math tutoring and continue tutoring her winter break and summer so she feels good about doing well in math.

It sounds like math isn't a huge weakness, just not her main strength. Bs in math are in the normal spectrum and if she's in a in a math-heavy school they probably put her above average. Can you point to high standardized test scores to prove your point?

At the same time, I think I might not tell her to focus on her strengths, but rather get her tutoring (or have her do Khan Academy) for weaknesses. It sounds like she would be motivated to do this, and you want her to keep her options open for the future. (Too many girls/women claim they "cant' do math" and this really limits what types of careers they try.)

Anonymous wrote:When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

OP here and you are me. This is why this is so hard for me to watch. When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes and my strength was math. 99th percentile on every standardized test, high IQ, math competitions, etc. But more than that, I wrongly assumed that being "smart" meant having things come easily to you. Not working for it.

Fast forward to adulthood and I see that I couldn't have been more wrong. Hard work, determination, resilience. Getting up after falling down. Helping others. These are the hallmarks of a great human being.

I have worked her whole life for her not to repeat my mistakes. I have praised her since she was little for being a hard worker, because things don't come easily to her. I have told her about countless people I knew in life who possess the same great characteristics that she has. Who have become world leaders, top athletes and musicians because things DIDN'T come easily to them and they DIDN'T give up when it got hard. Which I *always* did and still tend to do to this day if I don't catch myself and self-correct.

I desperately want her to believe me when I tell her that she is SO MUCH BETTER than I could ever be. That because she works hard and gets up after falling down, she will have MORE success in life than someone like me, who never had to try hard for anything. But she just doesn't see it. She just sees the negatives. She just doesn't get it.

I thank you so much for your response and I hope that someday this message will get through to her.

When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

Anonymous wrote:Can you get her some tutoring or academic coaching in a different style than what her teachers are using? I actually went to TJ and excelled in science there due to the analytic, problem-solving, practical-application style of instruction. As a college pre-med, I came close to flunking many of my 100- and 200-level science courses because they relied on rote memorization and multiple-choice tests, which I am just not good at. Key example: I took a pre-req class as a co-req with the associated follow-on seminar because my schedule couldn't accommodate both otherwise. I got a C in the pre-req (memorizing and multiple choice!) and an A in the seminar (critical reading and applying/advancing concepts). It might be that this pressure-cooker style of teaching is just not serving your daughter well - but a change in perspective could provide her the confidence she needs.

OP here and that is a good point that I hadn't considered. It could also be the way math is being presented in the school. I am going to look into this! Thank you for your reply!

Anonymous wrote:I could have written this post myself. I have an amazing daughter in a top DC private. She is a senior with a 3.9 GPA and has only ever received two Bs (a B and a B+), both in advanced math. She excels (truly) in English/history/foreign languages. However, she thinks she's a failure and won't get into college. In fact, she has straight come out and said that only people who are good in math are smart because "everyone" is good at what she's good at. Yikes!

I, too, have run out of things to say to counter the pervasive negativity she feels and it is just heartbreaking to watch. I don't know if I have any advice but I just wanted to say that I know what you're going through and I wish you and your daughter the very best.

OP here - I am sad reading your post. I wish our daughters could have each other to lean on. There must be so many others who are suffering like this but presenting with a strong exterior. It saddens me to think they are hurting so much on the inside. I hope that things work out for all of these girls.

Anonymous wrote:Therapy. Teens will often listen to a therapist over their parents, and therapists are often better at knowing what to say while still validating their feelings and fears.

OP here: this was my #1 suggestion to my husband. I think we need to get a neutral, third-party involved especially someone she feels comfortable confiding in. I think the whole problem with the district is she is afraid to go to the school counselors or teachers for fear of being labeled "weak". I suspect this is why she doesn't rely on her friends to help her with this either. I know her - she is very intent on showing strength on the outside. Thank you for this suggestion.

Can you get her some tutoring or academic coaching in a different style than what her teachers are using? I actually went to TJ and excelled in science there due to the analytic, problem-solving, practical-application style of instruction. As a college pre-med, I came close to flunking many of my 100- and 200-level science courses because they relied on rote memorization and multiple-choice tests, which I am just not good at. Key example: I took a pre-req class as a co-req with the associated follow-on seminar because my schedule couldn't accommodate both otherwise. I got a C in the pre-req (memorizing and multiple choice!) and an A in the seminar (critical reading and applying/advancing concepts). It might be that this pressure-cooker style of teaching is just not serving your daughter well - but a change in perspective could provide her the confidence she needs.

I could have written this post myself. I have an amazing daughter in a top DC private. She is a senior with a 3.9 GPA and has only ever received two Bs (a B and a B+), both in advanced math. She excels (truly) in English/history/foreign languages. However, she thinks she's a failure and won't get into college. In fact, she has straight come out and said that only people who are good in math are smart because "everyone" is good at what she's good at. Yikes!

I, too, have run out of things to say to counter the pervasive negativity she feels and it is just heartbreaking to watch. I don't know if I have any advice but I just wanted to say that I know what you're going through and I wish you and your daughter the very best.

Therapy. Teens will often listen to a therapist over their parents, and therapists are often better at knowing what to say while still validating their feelings and fears.

My 8th grade DD attends a very rigorous pressure-cooker type of public school in the NYC area. Due to demographic shifts over the past decade, our district has become markedly focused on math/science over time. This is our zoned public school, not a magnet school, so we didn't choose or test into this specific school for my DD. We originally chose this district because it was one of the top districts in the state, but now it has become very, very math/science hyper-competitive. For comparison, the GPA-centric culture sounds similar to what people on this board describe as the culture of math/science magnet schools like TJ.

For my younger son, this turn of events is not an issue. He is strongest in math/science and enjoys it and it comes easily to him. His cohort is not as academically advanced as my DD's so he ranks at or near the top, even in early middle school. So he is doing fine and enjoying school. But for my DD, it is an entirely different ballgame. For one thing, her cohort has always been very strong, especially in math/science. Unfortunately, math has always been her weakest subject. By weak, I mean she is in college prep (Algebra 1 Part 2) and her avg is high 80s instead of high 90s/100s like in all of her other classes. To my DH and I, that is fine. Amazing, even. That is her "weakest" subject?! But in our district, and especially compared to her very bright friends, being "only" in the college prep track for math vs being in honors 1 or 2 levels above makes her feel truly awful.

The focus on math/science in the district is really hurting her self-esteem. It is overemphasizing her weakness in math and under-emphasizing/under-appreciating her true talents/passions (writing, art, music, creativity). We constantly tell her not to worry about other people, you do you, girl power, etc. Focus on your strengths. If you are in a class that is not one of your core strengths, just work hard, do your best and move on. That everyone has strengths and weakness, including us, and that is just how life is. But she can't deal with it. She gets so hung up on the tiniest little "failures" that she will rehash them weeks or months later. She will get 100% on like 25 tests but if one time she gets an 72% she will just harp on that forever and say "see, I'm stupid!". Even if the average is still an "A". It's as if the successes are meaningless and the failures are all that matter to her, even though the failures are few and far between. And even then, they are hardly "failures" in the grand scheme of life.

This perceived flaw is causing her to have very low self-esteem and to think very critically of herself. Lots of crying, lots of her telling us she isn't good enough, etc. no matter how much my DH and I reassure her that she is doing great, to put things into perspective, that everyone is not amazing at everything, etc.

We really are at our wit's end with this. Last night was another late night up with her crying because she wasn't happy with one of her grades. We just can't seem to get through to her and she is so stressed and not the fun, happy kid we used to have. She will start high school next year and we know this is only going to get worse.

WWYD? Has anyone been through something like this before? How can we help her to see that she is the incredible person that really she is and stop always comparing herself to others? How can we assure her that even with "only" a B in college prep math, she can still go to a great college, get a great and interesting job and have a wonderful life? It's like she doesn't believe this to be a possible outcome no matter what we tell her.

Does anyone else have a child like this? How were you able to get through to them?

Thanks for any help you can provide.