Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

What area of STEM are you in, because in math and the life sciences all three are excellent. Physics too.
.

Applied math / computer science / software engineering / data science

Maybe I was a bit harsh in my first post. I concede that H/Y/P would probably be okay for more of the traditional-STEM-without-the-T-and-E academic pursuits - e.g. pure math, physics. But if you're adding technology into the mix in a big way, engineering, stuff about how businesses work today, then I can't see why anyone would even look twice at those institutions. They're almost certainly doing it for reasons of tradition, perceived prestige, etc.

The T-E parts are where the vast majority of jobs are, and certainly where most of the money is, so it's usually what people are referring to when they talk about STEM these days. But I should have been more clear.

DP...and your response is truly bizarre. You are in a pretty specific area of STEM (happens to be the one I'm in, though I have a background in physics)...and I don't know anyone who would go to Harvard to study CS unless they ended up there out of confusion. So it's weirdly harsh to bag on schools with excellent STEM departments just because they are not your departments. There are, however, many areas of T and E that are outside of the ones you are in...and Princeton, for example, has amazing departments in some of the more traditional engineering fields. I can assure you that people are not going their for reasons of prestige. And I'm not saying that out of any affection for Princeton (I turned down a fellowship from there because I didn't like the school) but simply because it's true.

This thread is way off the rails.

OP, I have an undergrad from S and a PhD from H in a physical science. I would say I did it in the right order (as would a friend from HS who did the opposite)...but H still offers very strong undergrad courses and opportunities for those who want them.

Regardless, though, your question is about LACs. And I would say it depends on the LACs. My Harvard department was fed from the usual suspects in terms of Ivies and elite universities as well as what, to me, was a usual suspect set of LACs: Middlebury, Swarthmore, Amherst, Claremont colleges, sisters colleges. Probably the most non-obvious was Wesleyan, but I would say hardly non-obvious. There are a couple of other excellent for STEM LACs that I would say have comparable education to elite universities, but I can't remember their names right now. Two of my closest grad school friends went to Middlebury and Wesleyan, and they both had excellent preparation for grad school at Harvard.

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

I don't believe you have a STEM PhD. I also don't believe that you are old enough to drink.

Anonymous wrote:

Harvard, Yale, and Princeton all rank in the top 25 for institutions producing the most PhD recipients from undergraduate origins on a size adjusted basis. Harvard and Princeton more than Stanford.

So what? Of course H/Y/P has a high throughput into PhD programs. They have a bunch of rich kids with no need to get a job and make money anytime soon. That doesn't mean anything at all. And that's nothing against PhDs, either, since I have one myself. I can understand wanting to do it because it's fun. But you can't hold that up as some sort of argument in this particular discussion.

Anonymous wrote:

Harvard has the second highest number of recipients with a Physics Nobel laureate of any college or university world-wide, and the most in Chemistry and Physiology/Medicine. It also has the greatest number of recipients of the Fields Medal for math and 4th for the Turing in CS. Princeton is known for its world class physics and math departments, with the 4th highest number of Field medalist recipients. Yale admittedly isn't in the same tier as H/P/S for STEM excellence, but it's easily in the top 20 universities worldwide.

Of course they have a high number of award recipients. They're long-standing institutions. Once again, that doesn't mean anything. And it certainly doesn't mean anything in the context of 'modern' STEM fields, as I had (perhaps incorrectly) interpreted the OP's question to be about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

Which of the top schools would you recommend then?

Totally depends on the specific field / interest area and the type of role you're seeking after graduation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

What area of STEM are you in, because in math and the life sciences all three are excellent. Physics too.
.

Applied math / computer science / software engineering / data science

Maybe I was a bit harsh in my first post. I concede that H/Y/P would probably be okay for more of the traditional-STEM-without-the-T-and-E academic pursuits - e.g. pure math, physics. But if you're adding technology into the mix in a big way, engineering, stuff about how businesses work today, then I can't see why anyone would even look twice at those institutions. They're almost certainly doing it for reasons of tradition, perceived prestige, etc.

The T-E parts are where the vast majority of jobs are, and certainly where most of the money is, so it's usually what people are referring to when they talk about STEM these days. But I should have been more clear.

This thread is full of misinformation.

H excels at certain STEM fields. I was a STEM major.

It's pretty easy to tell who is excelling. Note that every good graduate program (and every MD program and MD/PhD program if you're in life sciences) knows what the difficult courses are at H, who the impressive thesis advisors/challenging labs to work in are, and how the students stack up compared to each other.

(Also, the top honors in field and thesis prizes are only given to a very small number of students at H. Summa is reserved for at most 5 percent--probably lower in some STEM departments--, and the department looks closely at the rigor of your classes (not just grades) and your thesis in your field.)

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

This is just complete B.S.

Harvard, Yale, and Princeton all rank in the top 25 for institutions producing the most PhD recipients from undergraduate origins on a size adjusted basis. Harvard and Princeton more than Stanford.

Harvard has the second highest number of recipients with a Physics Nobel laureate of any college or university world-wide, and the most in Chemistry and Physiology/Medicine. It also has the greatest number of recipients of the Fields Medal for math and 4th for the Turing in CS. Princeton is known for its world class physics and math departments, with the 4th highest number of Field medalist recipients. Yale admittedly isn't in the same tier as H/P/S for STEM excellence, but it's easily in the top 20 universities worldwide.

It's truly your loss, not theirs, that you'll bullheadedly ignore distinctive STEM students simply because they came from HYP.

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

Which of the top schools would you recommend then?

Anonymous wrote:I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

What area of STEM are you in, because in math and the life sciences all three are excellent. Physics too.
.

I have a STEM PhD. I would never go to H/Y/P, nor would I ever encourage one of my STEM-oriented kids to do so. They do not have a good reputation when it comes to STEM fields, and I'd honestly question the judgement of anyone who went to one of those schools for a tech-related or science-related field. Law is one thing, STEM is another thing entirely. I would never hire such a person, nor would DH who is also in the field.

We'd bet a lot of money that STEM courses would be a LOT easier at H/Y/P than other schools that are more highly regarded for those fields. I wouldn't consider it an issue of grade inflation etc, more just that they don't have the expertise or the good students in those areas to really have a challenging curriculum.

Stanford is the obvious exception. It's a good STEM school.

Davidson has rampant grade deflation, with some professors believing no one deserves an A.

No they aren't. The average GPA at Swarthmore, 3.56 was the fourth highest in the country. The average GPA at Columbia is above a 3.5. Most of the others are in the 3.4+ range, ie. more grade inflated than your usual state school.

STEM is generally more deflated than other disciplines in every school.

Out of the USNews top 25 schools Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Brown and UVa are known for their rampant grade inflation.

Princeton, Chicago, Cornell, Penn, Columbia, Hopkins, NU are more deflated compared to the group above.

When it comes to LACs, I know Williams and Swarthmore are similarly or even more deflated than the ivies mentioned above.

Not sure about the rest.

Anyone out there ever transfer (or have a child who transferred) from an highly selective school (think H/Y/P/S/etc.) to some other top 25 top university or LAC who was a STEM major or who transferred in the other direction? Or anyone with siblings in each type of school who have actually made such comparisons? I am trying to evaluate whether STEM classes are any harder -- or graded any harder because of the curve (or a reverse curve) in the most selective universities vs. other very well regarded universities /LACs or flagship state U's? Putting aside here MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd -- assuming they are in a class by themselves. General comments about grade inflation would not be helpful here. Probably rare, but really looking for some first hand experience.