If they're a URM, they're a shoo-in, even without great grades.

Anonymous wrote:PP-MIT might be the one that the perfect scorer could make it in bc they could express their engineering love or CS love in their essays and EC.... but Stanford, you need to be a real live rainbow unicorn.

None of these kids is a perfect scorer. Good students, yes. Powerhouses, hooked, or just best-in-show at their high schools, no.

And they're all really nice kids. I want them to go someplace they'll be happy. But parental bias is not helping them find that place.

PP-MIT might be the one that the perfect scorer could make it in bc they could express their engineering love or CS love in their essays and EC.... but Stanford, you need to be a real live rainbow unicorn.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Yes and no. I think the better way to say it is that perfect grades/scores don't guarantee admission to top schools without serious talent. But there are still plenty of kids that do get in without serious talent or passion. I know a few kids that got into top 20 schools. They had great grades/scores and extracurriculars but nothing I would call state or national level anything. They each played sports at their HS but definitely not recruited or were even on teams that did particularly well. I'm sure they had great recs, essays & other activities including internships but no one thing that was extraordinary. They were well rounded kids.

There has to be something that separates them from the others? Or do these places put all the perfect scores in and draw from a hat?

THese stats from our school who got admitted to these schools - apply early using ED. But that would mean not applying to HYPS which most parents cannot believe their kids with the perfect scores etc. will not get in. Another hook that most people don't see or realize - Hispanic even 25%, grandparents who had money and donated a lot, etc. Parents need to 'open' their eyes - there are a lot of 'behind the scenes' reasons. Example, kid who got into Ivy with so so grades and scores and no sports. Well, grandparents with different last name, funds an annual lecture series worth over $2M a year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Students not listening to you today?

No, it's the parents in denial. They refuse to face reality and it's unfair to their kids really.

Well, thank you for trying. It must be awful; I have a hard enough time listening to friends who have nice kids with nice extracurriculars and good grades. Said parents torture themselves about whether MIT is right for their kids. Is Stanford too far away? Is Pasadena too bland?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Yes and no. I think the better way to say it is that perfect grades/scores don't guarantee admission to top schools without serious talent. But there are still plenty of kids that do get in without serious talent or passion. I know a few kids that got into top 20 schools. They had great grades/scores and extracurriculars but nothing I would call state or national level anything. They each played sports at their HS but definitely not recruited or were even on teams that did particularly well. I'm sure they had great recs, essays & other activities including internships but no one thing that was extraordinary. They were well rounded kids.

There has to be something that separates them from the others? Or do these places put all the perfect scores in and draw from a hat?

Recs, schools, essays, demographics, legacy, ability to pay

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Yes and no. I think the better way to say it is that perfect grades/scores don't guarantee admission to top schools without serious talent. But there are still plenty of kids that do get in without serious talent or passion. I know a few kids that got into top 20 schools. They had great grades/scores and extracurriculars but nothing I would call state or national level anything. They each played sports at their HS but definitely not recruited or were even on teams that did particularly well. I'm sure they had great recs, essays & other activities including internships but no one thing that was extraordinary. They were well rounded kids.

Full pay?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Yes and no. I think the better way to say it is that perfect grades/scores don't guarantee admission to top schools without serious talent. But there are still plenty of kids that do get in without serious talent or passion. I know a few kids that got into top 20 schools. They had great grades/scores and extracurriculars but nothing I would call state or national level anything. They each played sports at their HS but definitely not recruited or were even on teams that did particularly well. I'm sure they had great recs, essays & other activities including internships but no one thing that was extraordinary. They were well rounded kids.

There has to be something that separates them from the others? Or do these places put all the perfect scores in and draw from a hat?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Yes and no. I think the better way to say it is that perfect grades/scores don't guarantee admission to top schools without serious talent. But there are still plenty of kids that do get in without serious talent or passion. I know a few kids that got into top 20 schools. They had great grades/scores and extracurriculars but nothing I would call state or national level anything. They each played sports at their HS but definitely not recruited or were even on teams that did particularly well. I'm sure they had great recs, essays & other activities including internships but no one thing that was extraordinary. They were well rounded kids.

This describes my DD and several of her friends who got into "top 20" schools last year from a good public very well, down to the enthusiastic participation in not very good teams as their main EC. Not a one of them got into HPYS (only the kids with hooks or staggeringly impressive talents had luck with those), but they got into schools like Duke, Cornell, Northwestern, Rice, Vandy, WashU and Johns Hopkins. Most of us knew the odds and made sure our kids didn't waste too much time on applications at the super reaches. Many of the other universities seemed happy to accept high stats kids who showed a lot of interest and were sincere in their desire to attend.

That being said, I did have a couple of friends who were absolutely convinced that a 2400 SAT/4.0 UW GPA/12 APs with all 5s on the tests meant that their kid would get into one of the tippy top schools, and they and their kids were devastated for a while when it didn't work out. So I think the overall message of this thread is good for people who may not be as familiar with the current admissions picture.

Anonymous wrote:What do you do? I'm a college counselor and I TOTALLY agree with you btw! Cannot stand the crazy parents. I have one mom who keeps fighting everything I tell her because college confidential knows more than me, apparently. So why is she paying me?

I'm a counselor as well. And ditto on the CC comments. I can usually tell immediately who has a shot and who doesn't. Managing parents expectations is the most difficult part and then opening up their minds to non top-20 schools is the other. Most parents call me the summer or first quarter of junior year. I'm sorry I can't make your kid a figure skater in one year, but yes I can help in a ton of other ways. I have what I call a "nightmare parent detector" and turn them down as clients bc they are soul sucking.

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Yes and no. I think the better way to say it is that perfect grades/scores don't guarantee admission to top schools without serious talent. But there are still plenty of kids that do get in without serious talent or passion. I know a few kids that got into top 20 schools. They had great grades/scores and extracurriculars but nothing I would call state or national level anything. They each played sports at their HS but definitely not recruited or were even on teams that did particularly well. I'm sure they had great recs, essays & other activities including internships but no one thing that was extraordinary. They were well rounded kids.

What do you do? I'm a college counselor and I TOTALLY agree with you btw! Cannot stand the crazy parents. I have one mom who keeps fighting everything I tell her because college confidential knows more than me, apparently. So why is she paying me?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Students not listening to you today?

No, it's the parents in denial. They refuse to face reality and it's unfair to their kids really.

Anonymous wrote:having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.

Students not listening to you today?

having an extreme talent in an area they need at that moment. Perfect scorers with perfect GPA will get rejected. Not only do you need to have an extreme talent, but you have to have provable achievements. 10, 000 hours of community service means nada. Your Scholastic awards mean nothing. Your MUN competitions mean almost nothing. Your state level Varsity sports could mean something, your state level Oboe could mean something, but your state level violin probably won't. Top scorers are a dime a dozen, you have to be top scorer PLUS supremely talented. Every year I tell this to parents and they don't believe me and they apply and their kid gets shut out. And they thank me for making them apply to some realistic schools (that they think they will never have to attend)…bc they got shut out of 7, accepted to the state safety they don't really like, but the other 2 schools they didn't think they would need…well, thank god bc that is where they end up. There are very few exceptions to these rules.