It also sounds (and one PP alluded to this) like the girl may be afraid of her parents' reaction to "misbehavior." Sounds like a broken connection in some way-- it may not be that her parents (mom? dad? both?) harshly punish. It may be that the kid herself has an overdeveloped superego or whatever and is overly afraid of parental disapproval (I was like this). But I feel like there is more to it than simple "manipulation," as if the behavior were mildly sociopathic. There's a reason this kid is probably lying when other kids aren't, and it may not be that her parents see her as a precious snowflake and she is a conniving little sh!t, but more that she is hyper-concerned/anxious. Anyway. Something to consider.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question to you, op is why does it bother you? So your friend thinks her DD can do no wrong....how does this affect you directly? Leave it alone unless the DD is blaming your DD otherwise it is none of your business. Seriously just worry about your relationship with your own children.

Because she tells me the stories in an incredulous tone like her kid couldn't possibly be involved. It involves my children sometimes because when they break the rules there are consequences and her child doesn't end up with any consequences because she denies involvement. My kid is learning that lying gets you out of consequences. I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but the mom is telling me that other parents and school staff are talking to her about her kid's involvement in situations but she refuses to believe it and it's frustrating to listen to. She wants me to be a supportive friend about it but I find it difficult to be in this situation.

I posted before - your situation is more involved but your friend sounds just as clueless. And even more frustrating that she's complaining to you and likely expecting commiseration.

I still feel like if you want to keep this friend you should tell her your opinion. I'm not sure how to say to it but others have made some good suggestions. Direct is usually best.

Anonymous wrote:My question to you, op is why does it bother you? So your friend thinks her DD can do no wrong....how does this affect you directly? Leave it alone unless the DD is blaming your DD otherwise it is none of your business. Seriously just worry about your relationship with your own children.

Because she tells me the stories in an incredulous tone like her kid couldn't possibly be involved. It involves my children sometimes because when they break the rules there are consequences and her child doesn't end up with any consequences because she denies involvement. My kid is learning that lying gets you out of consequences. I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but the mom is telling me that other parents and school staff are talking to her about her kid's involvement in situations but she refuses to believe it and it's frustrating to listen to. She wants me to be a supportive friend about it but I find it difficult to be in this situation.

My question to you, op is why does it bother you? So your friend thinks her DD can do no wrong....how does this affect you directly? Leave it alone unless the DD is blaming your DD otherwise it is none of your business. Seriously just worry about your relationship with your own children.

Anonymous wrote:Are you SURE the kid was involved? Did you see what unfolded with your own eyes? How are you so sure about what's happening?
In our neighborhood there are a couple of kids that are blamed for everyone else's poor behavior. These kids have a history of some poor behavior years ago and the other kids take advantage and blame lots of things that happen on those kids and everyone believes them. I saw this happen several times where these kids told their parents and teachers things that these kids supposedly did when they were not at all involved in the incidents. No one believed these poor kids and I might not have either had I not witnessed what happened. The other kids were very convincing.

OP here. It's more like they're ALL doing something and this kid swears she was the only one not involved while the others fess up. It's not that others are blaming it on her. I haven't seen these specific instances with my own eyes, so I can't be 100% sure, but it's not just happening with one group of friends. I've only seen it happen with the neighborhood kids but the mom has told me about a few instances at school that have occurred with different groups of kids.

-OP

PP here. Their parents are the only ones that actually looked in to the incidents and found out their kids were not involved but I know other parents still give them the snake eye. I've tried to stick up for them but it's hard because the other parents jump to conclusions and believe their own precious snowflake's version. One parent even sent a nasty email to one scapegoat kid's parents when in reality the child did not do anything the parent mentioned! That mom was upset but in her reply back left it vague and apologized for any general misbehavior even when there wasn't any.

I think you might approach it in a different way than suggesting to her that her kid is lying to her (which you don't know for sure and which is guaranteed to make her defensive). Why not focus on the fact that she might have trouble making/keeping friends if she doesn't go along with the group when things get tough? I mean, you could suggest that the mom could tell her daughter, "Even if you didn't do it, you were with the other kids, and you should hear about why this was not okay." I assume there's no major punishment being handed out by a single person in any of these cases but they are more general. Why not suggest that your friend simply say, "We'll talk about this more at home"?

Are you SURE the kid was involved? Did you see what unfolded with your own eyes? How are you so sure about what's happening?
In our neighborhood there are a couple of kids that are blamed for everyone else's poor behavior. These kids have a history of some poor behavior years ago and the other kids take advantage and blame lots of things that happen on those kids and everyone believes them. I saw this happen several times where these kids told their parents and teachers things that these kids supposedly did when they were not at all involved in the incidents. No one believed these poor kids and I might not have either had I not witnessed what happened. The other kids were very convincing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a similar experience with a friend and her DD. I figured it wasn't my place to say anything and that she'd figure it out eventually.

Things escalated over time and her DD became mostly ostracized from the other neighborhood kids due to this behavior. They stopped including her, and my friend asked why our kids had fallen out.

It was very awkward. I said kids grow apart, and that I knew my daughter liked hers but was finding things in common with other kids. Her daughter went to another school the next year so we didn't see them as much - but in retrospect I should have been direct with her about her DD's behavior.

But if your friend asked, why didn't you tell her? In that situation, I think I'd want to know .

Yup, I should have told her. She was just so clueless and it was hard for me to burst her bubble about her daughter. But looking back now I was wrong and should have spoken up. Hoping OP won't make the same mistake!

has your friend always been like this or is this the first thing like this? I have a friend, who is great, but will blame everything and everyone but her son. there would be zero chance that a conversation with her would be helpful. But if your friend is not normally like this, maybe gently question if her child could be lieing. But phrase it like " you know I have heard it is common for kids this age to lie, do you think we will be able to know when they do?"

Anonymous wrote:I had a similar experience with a friend and her DD. I figured it wasn't my place to say anything and that she'd figure it out eventually.

Things escalated over time and her DD became mostly ostracized from the other neighborhood kids due to this behavior. They stopped including her, and my friend asked why our kids had fallen out.

It was very awkward. I said kids grow apart, and that I knew my daughter liked hers but was finding things in common with other kids. Her daughter went to another school the next year so we didn't see them as much - but in retrospect I should have been direct with her about her DD's behavior.

But if your friend asked, why didn't you tell her? In that situation, I think I'd want to know .

I have a friend like this too. It's clear the parents are being manipulated but they refuse to see it. The kid is also the first one to point out when anyone else is doing something wrong.

Be vague but hint around that kids can lie and manipulate because they want their parents' approval.

I had a similar experience with a friend and her DD. I figured it wasn't my place to say anything and that she'd figure it out eventually.

Things escalated over time and her DD became mostly ostracized from the other neighborhood kids due to this behavior. They stopped including her, and my friend asked why our kids had fallen out.

It was very awkward. I said kids grow apart, and that I knew my daughter liked hers but was finding things in common with other kids. Her daughter went to another school the next year so we didn't see them as much - but in retrospect I should have been direct with her about her DD's behavior.

Well, that's an overstatement. Over the past few months there have been a few situations where a group of neighborhood kids have been playing together and they do something that's against the rules. My friend's DD swears she wasn't involved, gets upset and cries really hard and my friend says she believes her. Meanwhile my kid and the others maintain that she was actually involved.

Anyway, there have been a few instances at school where similar situations have occurred with different groups of friends and my friend's DD reacts the same way--denies her involvement and then cries about it and my friend always believes her.

Another such incident occurred over the weekend and my friend's reaction is to get upset at the other parent who told her about the incident. My friend says she still believes her DD if her DD says she wasn't involved.

I know it's hard to realize that your kid may be capable of lying to you and her kid is pretty convincing. I wasn't there for all of the incidents so I can't say for sure if her DD was involved but I feel like my friend has to stop getting defensive and start looking into it more before just automatically dismissing these accounts. Her DD is overall a good kid but it appears she's figuring out how to manipulate and convince her parents that she's never involved in these situations.

When my friend tells me these stories in an incredulous tone, I'm torn between biting my tongue and suggesting that there's a pattern brewing here. What would you do?