It's mostly nurture, as evidenced by mostly-well behaved children in restaurants in France.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait, what's wrong with stacking dirty dishes? DH and I waited tables for years, so we do that as a courtesy to the servers.

Right. It's a faux pas. It's not something diners are supposed to do. It's actually not a courtesy, as it draws attention to dirty dishes. In lots of fancier restaurants, the servers don't stack, they remove dishes one at a time and never carry more than one per hand.

In any case, please don't so this anywhere nicer than Chili's.

I mean... I am the PP you are responding to, and I actually knew that. I worked at places nicer than Chili's (although not fine dining). But I do it at Chili's level restaurants and any place where I don't rightfully expect super-attentive service.. Frankly, and I say this as a former server-- if you work in a place where dinner entrees are $20 and up and your table has time to stack their plates, plural-- and you are not totally weeded through no fault of your own, like being the only server on duty for a 10-table restaurant-- you kind of deserve the sight of your customers doing your job for you. It's a visual signal that says bring us the dang check already.

PP with the rough-around-the-edges husband. He isn't doing it because the dishes have sat on the table too long. He does it as soon as he is finished, while others are still eating.

Ah, gotcha. My own mom had to learn a lot of the same lessons-- she grew up very much working poor in the south, ended up bootstrapping her way to an Ivy League med school. BIG learning curve.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait, what's wrong with stacking dirty dishes? DH and I waited tables for years, so we do that as a courtesy to the servers.

Right. It's a faux pas. It's not something diners are supposed to do. It's actually not a courtesy, as it draws attention to dirty dishes. In lots of fancier restaurants, the servers don't stack, they remove dishes one at a time and never carry more than one per hand.

In any case, please don't so this anywhere nicer than Chili's.

I mean... I am the PP you are responding to, and I actually knew that. I worked at places nicer than Chili's (although not fine dining). But I do it at Chili's level restaurants and any place where I don't rightfully expect super-attentive service.. Frankly, and I say this as a former server-- if you work in a place where dinner entrees are $20 and up and your table has time to stack their plates, plural-- and you are not totally weeded through no fault of your own, like being the only server on duty for a 10-table restaurant-- you kind of deserve the sight of your customers doing your job for you. It's a visual signal that says bring us the dang check already.

PP with the rough-around-the-edges husband. He isn't doing it because the dishes have sat on the table too long. He does it as soon as he is finished, while others are still eating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait, what's wrong with stacking dirty dishes? DH and I waited tables for years, so we do that as a courtesy to the servers.

Right. It's a faux pas. It's not something diners are supposed to do. It's actually not a courtesy, as it draws attention to dirty dishes. In lots of fancier restaurants, the servers don't stack, they remove dishes one at a time and never carry more than one per hand.

In any case, please don't so this anywhere nicer than Chili's.

I mean... I am the PP you are responding to, and I actually knew that. I worked at places nicer than Chili's (although not fine dining). But I do it at Chili's level restaurants and any place where I don't rightfully expect super-attentive service.. Frankly, and I say this as a former server-- if you work in a place where dinner entrees are $20 and up and your table has time to stack their plates, plural-- and you are not totally weeded through no fault of your own, like being the only server on duty for a 10-table restaurant-- you kind of deserve the sight of your customers doing your job for you. It's a visual signal that says bring us the dang check already.

Anonymous wrote:Wait, what's wrong with stacking dirty dishes? DH and I waited tables for years, so we do that as a courtesy to the servers.

Right. It's a faux pas. It's not something diners are supposed to do. It's actually not a courtesy, as it draws attention to dirty dishes. In lots of fancier restaurants, the servers don't stack, they remove dishes one at a time and never carry more than one per hand.

In any case, please don't so this anywhere nicer than Chili's.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um... you do know children learn through experience, right? It's not a magic trick.

Sure, but again with the correlation vs causation. Are your kids "well-behaved" because you go out a lot, or do you go out a lot because they're well-behaved, or would they be well-behaved even if you didn't go out a lot...?

It's nature *and* nurture.

Wait, what's wrong with stacking dirty dishes? DH and I waited tables for years, so we do that as a courtesy to the servers.

Anonymous wrote:Um... you do know children learn through experience, right? It's not a magic trick.

Sure, but again with the correlation vs causation. Are your kids "well-behaved" because you go out a lot, or do you go out a lot because they're well-behaved, or would they be well-behaved even if you didn't go out a lot...?

My husband's parents never took him out at a child (they were welfare-poor), and he struggles in restaurants (he only orders food he can eat with his hands, even at nicer restaurants, he eats off the serving plate, he double dips, he stacks dirty dishes in the middle of the table, etc). It's noticeable, and I think it has set him back a little, professionally. He is very ambitious and well educated (JD from an Ivy), but he lacks a lot of social graces.

I don't want the same for my son, so I take him out and we practice good manners. We go to family-friendly places (not Ruth's Chris on NYE), but we talk about how to behave.

Um... you do know children learn through experience, right? It's not a magic trick.

I think they won't know how to act unless (a) you expect pretty much the same behavior st the table at home and (b) they get to practice. Low risk places - where if they're noisy or messy it's not a show stopper - we found are best for practicing with our kids and lunch moreso than dinner so that when a dinner comes up elsewhere, they're prepared.

I agree with the self fulfilling prophecy. If your kid is poorly behaved and you continually have to leave in the middle of the meal, I can't imagine going back and doing that over and over again until the behavior improves.

We take our son out frequently, but if he misbehaves, we leave. He gets one warning and then we get up and walk out (while my DH deals with wrapping up my food and paying the check).

We have only had to leave a restaurant twice.

I think it depends on the kid, but the short answer to your question is yes.

...or is it more a matter of correlation than causation, or is it mostly random luck?

Just wondering-- I found an old thread about whether or not people take their kids (in this case, 5 and 8) out to restaurants. Many people said they did, some said they didn't at all-- and many said they only took them to, like, IHOP, so they didn't particularly enjoy it or want to make a habit out of it.

A lot of people prided themselves on taking their kids out early and often, and used that as a explanation for why their kids were so well-behaved in restaurants.

It seems to me that if your kid couldn't handle restaurants, you probably wouldn't take them out often, so it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy, unless you were really adamant about powering through a tough phases, etc.

OTOH, perhaps the true frequency makes a difference? My kid is admittedly "good" in restaurants, but we go out a LOT. Not once a week-- probably 3x/week. We have done this more or less from birth. She's medium energy in everyday life-- closer to climbing the walls than sitting docilely, but not extreme. Then again... Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she's an only child (and I'd have to think only children would be taken out more often than two+)-- and there's no one else to rile her up, etc.? So again, correlation?

What do you think?