Anonymous wrote:My own mother wasn't quite this extreme, but growing up was very similar - very high expectations of performance in anything I choice to do and very concerned about how I looked going out, but mostly when we were visiting family. Her upbringing has a lot to do with it (Iranian) and she's mellowed out a bit as she's gotten older at least. But still cares about weight, makeup, etc.

Talk with your mom. Tell her that her intense focus led to a lot of issues with you growing up. "I didn't notice!" is what my mom said, to which I responded that that was WHY I was telling her.

Does your mother also play the comparison game? She did that with me and other people's kids a lot and that is the one I need to be on the look out for with our kids (having our first soon). I like PP who says to have a talk with your kids, explaining that grandma's words are not to be taken at face value.

Wow. Your Iranian mom sounds like my Korean mom. She was constantly telling me to lose weight. I was chubby and stayed chubby until my 30s and maybe that led me to be unable to "marry up" since high earning Korean guys were very much into looks. She tried to convey this to me but I rebelled and ended up having self worthlessness issues and body image issues. Her disapproval was such a dominating force I tried to excel in academics to please her. I did excel but it got me into serious depression when the first major failure happened in my life (B-/C average in law school despite my utter best efforts and failing the bar exam). I digressed too much into me. But basically i wanted to say your mom can be toxic and you are not overreacting.

I think that you are reacting to your upbringing by going too far in the other direction. It's ok if you tell your daughter that she looks pretty in that outfit.
My parents also wanted to make sure that I knew that beauty came from the inside and never told me I looked beautiful. Even though I was a child, I knew looks were important in the real world. Why couldn't my parents say I was beautiful on the outside just once? Was I ugly? This caused self esteem issues by the time I was a teen.
Don't let the complexes your mother instilled in you become a different set of complexes in your children.

Anonymous wrote:If she lives four hours away it's unlikely she will spend a lot of time with your kids. You have all the time in the world to instill the right values. If you do a good job the kids will learn to put up with grandma's opinions and get to the point where they will roll their eyes.

+1 You are their mother and primary caretaker - they will learn their values from you. They will see that their grandmother perceives things differently and values different things, and that's okay - it won't have the same power over them because she's not their parent. They won't internalize it.

OP here. Thank you all for your insight, including those who said I might be overreacting. I had just recently spent a weekend with them, and it had been a while since we last saw them, and it seemed as though everything that I find frustrating/annoying about her behavior they managed to cram into one weekend (my dad is very laid back and will sometimes tell my mom to lay off, but mostly just lets her do her own thing) and that just made everything come to a head in my mind.

I found it very validating to hear from people who said that my mom was not harmless, however. Even though logically I know she was damaging, I still have the tendency to gaslight myself and blame myself for my problems that developed as a result of her issues.

My husband and I discussed the issue. We both have our own issues with my parents (my husband finds them very *high maintenance* as though nothing pleases them, my issues are detailed above). We agreed that while we want to maintain a relationship, we do not want them exerting too much influence over our rearing or our children's beliefs about themseles/the world around them.

We are going to work on limiting this influence and surrounding our children with other healthy couples who share our views.

Thank you all again.

I feel like I've been recommending this book a lot lately, but considering your mom has such massive boundary issues, and how it's affected you and continues to affect everyone, if you haven't already read it, I recommend the book called Boundaries.

Your mom disguises it as love and attention, but she actually operates from a place where she is all about getting her needs met, filling a gaping hole in herself. She didn't see you as a separate person, but as an extension of herself that she used to meet her needs to look good, to feel better via your achievements, to get attention and approval through you.

Kids are in the process of growing their sense of self, their sense of healthy boundaries, and she "lovingly" bulldozed and jumbled that all up for you. You may have been able to develop more boundaries as an adult, and more sense of what's healthy and normal, perhaps, but she's still who she is. And you see her showing her neediness towards your kids, overriding what is actually best for them. As an adult, now you can lay down the healthy boundaries. Just don't expect her to like it.

And you do need to arm your kids, because as the anecdotes here demonstrate, her attitudes and words will affect them even if they only see her once in a while. (We all need to be more mindful about how much we comment on girls' looks. What falls out of peoples' mouths when they want to say something nice about a boy? How strong he is, how smart, how competent, etc. With a girl, it's almost invariably something about her appearance.)

The examples others gave of what to say about and to Grandma are good examples of creating and reinforcing healthy boundaries and teaching awareness of what is normal and acceptable. We love Grandma, and she loves us, and she also happens to say/do _________, which we don't say or do, because we know it's not healthy/right, etc.

So- I agree that you need to be cautious, but disagree that saying "grandma only cares about appearance" is the right approach.
For context-- it sounds like your mom was very similar to my grandma (dad's mom). She only had boys, so when it came to me and my sisters, we were the girls she always wanted but didn't have herself. The clothes buying/etc all sound similar-- the first time I ever had a manicure and my first hairstylist appointment (for something other than a cut) were both with her (and I was in like 4th or 5th grade). She totally spoiled us with food, outings, etc, and I loved her dearly.
It was obvious that she cared about looks-- it was known that she preferred me because I was the "pretty one" among my sisters, and she once made me cry when I was like 11 or 12 by saying something about the size of my hips. That said, our time with her was limited to the 2 family trips each year, and even to a youngish kid it was pretty obvious that she was a little nuts (she once told me not to be friends with girls prettier than me, so that boys would be more attracted to me in a group-- I was in 6th grade at the time). None of her neuroses rubbed off on me, I have plenty of friends who are prettier than I am, and I never felt the urge to look a certain way or do something to make her happy. I think my own very down to earth parents and the generational separation helps. Basically, I think as long as you set healthy examples for them the 99% of the time grandma isn't around, they will see how her behavior differs from the norm and it will be ok.

Anonymous wrote:If she lives four hours away it's unlikely she will spend a lot of time with your kids. You have all the time in the world to instill the right values. If you do a good job the kids will learn to put up with grandma's opinions and get to the point where they will roll their eyes.

My parents live 2500 miles away and see the kids 3 times a year. I've instilled values I think are important in my children. However, they idolize my parents. My parents are fun, give them candy, chocolates, soda, video games, movies, iPads, vacations, whatever they want. They squeeze as much as they can into that little time they have. When grandma says, "oh, you're wearing that?" or "you look so much prettier when you wear blue, have long hair, whatever grandma wants," I see that it impacts my children. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that because someone lives far away or doesn't have much time with kids, they won't influence them. Kids are impressionable, and women like op's mom are master manipulators. Kids are no match to them.

If she lives four hours away it's unlikely she will spend a lot of time with your kids. You have all the time in the world to instill the right values. If you do a good job the kids will learn to put up with grandma's opinions and get to the point where they will roll their eyes.

"please don't listen to Grandma. She has very unhealthy attitudes about appearance."

Anonymous wrote:You can just flat out say to the 5 yr old "Grandma is obsessed with looks. We are NOT. We value how much we can respect ourselves and others and if we're honest, kind people who try hard. We can still love Grandma even though we have different values than her. Because it's okay to love people who are different from us."

Then just remind her of this each time she's about to see Grandma. And tell your mom to shut up about your kids appearances. Tell her "Your harping on my appearance led to my eating disorder in college. These are MY kids. So cut out the comments."

+1

I can't like this one enough. Your mother was NOT harmless. Her insecurities and obsession with appearance robbed you of peace and joy and led to an eating disorder. Frankly, she is twisted and dangerous.

It's great that you have established distance. I would be very blunt with her if she starts among appearance comments in front of my children. "We judge people by their actions, not their appearance. Cut it out with pressure on my kids". (actually, the one above is better.)

To your kids, you can be honest. "grandma was obsessed with appearance when I was growing up. It made me insecure and led to me developing anxiety and disordered eating that I still battle. I want you to be happy with who you are, and I love you just the way you are."

My own mother wasn't quite this extreme, but growing up was very similar - very high expectations of performance in anything I choice to do and very concerned about how I looked going out, but mostly when we were visiting family. Her upbringing has a lot to do with it (Iranian) and she's mellowed out a bit as she's gotten older at least. But still cares about weight, makeup, etc.

Talk with your mom. Tell her that her intense focus led to a lot of issues with you growing up. "I didn't notice!" is what my mom said, to which I responded that that was WHY I was telling her.

Does your mother also play the comparison game? She did that with me and other people's kids a lot and that is the one I need to be on the look out for with our kids (having our first soon). I like PP who says to have a talk with your kids, explaining that grandma's words are not to be taken at face value.

You can just flat out say to the 5 yr old "Grandma is obsessed with looks. We are NOT. We value how much we can respect ourselves and others and if we're honest, kind people who try hard. We can still love Grandma even though we have different values than her. Because it's okay to love people who are different from us."

Then just remind her of this each time she's about to see Grandma. And tell your mom to shut up about your kids appearances. Tell her "Your harping on my appearance led to my eating disorder in college. These are MY kids. So cut out the comments."

It's not the end of the world, OP. I think you need to talk to your kids about YOUR values and try to decrease the frequency of visits by Grandma.

Would you have preferred my mother?
She was so afraid of my growing up and leaving that she forbade me from leaving the house when I came home from school (no seeing friends or having friends over) and she forced me to wear baggy, unfashionable clothing that was incredibly embarrassing. She threw a fit and called me a slut and worse when I bought myself a pair of shorts and a tank top and dared to wear them outside.
She's obsessed with fat - tells my young kids they shouldn't eat too much because they'll get fat (even to my son, who is UNDERweight).

Now the ocean is between us.

My mother is mentally ill and I understand where you are coming from op but I think you are overreacting a little bit. Basically, your mother is annoying but relatively harmless. Ignore the things that are bugging you and raise your children the way you want. Don't worry about a five year old's future dating life and how involved grandma will be. For all you know by then there will be a google algorithm choosing all of our spouses.

Growing up my mother was, well, interesting. The two points that I think illustrate this the best are:

1. Her behavior with my sports. I was very involved with competitive sports growing up and was decent at them. Not the best, but made the top teams (travel teams, varsity in HS for my key sport, etc). She used to have these expectations of constant high performance. She would get intensely competitive and get soo moody/angry if I did not perform well. By the time I was in HS, if I did well I used to be so happy, not because my hours of hard work and effort were paying off, but because I knew she would be in a great mood and proud of me.

2. Boys/appearance. Everything was always about appearance with her. She would get moody/angry if I didn't get up in time in the morning in HS to do my hair properly and just put it in a ponytail. Didn't I want to look good? Boys wouldn't pay attention to me when I don't take care of my looks! Of course I didn't actually look bad, I would still put on makeup and I was in decent shape. I was a bit of an introvert and just an average kid, friends in multiple 'clicks'. She was also determined to be my confidant when it came to friends/boys. She used to sit by me at my computer when I was I'Ming (ahh the early 2000's) with friends/boys and help me come up with responses in conversations or those stupid 'away' messages.

It was awful. She was disgustingly emeshed in my life. She was completely living vicariously through me and I didn't really develop close relationships with anyone until college (when I moved over 3 hours away and rarely went home, even in the summers. I didn't really realize how bad it was until I started to develop close female friendships and realized that this was not how mothers/daughters behave. I believed her when she said that she just wanted to be close because she wasn't with her parents.

The thing that makes this different is that I know she really does love me and my siblings. I am not really sure what her problem is, but I do know that she's not like a narcissist because she does love us. She is always supportive of goals and dreams, displays affection, doesn't have a golden child, wants to hear about our lives-- not just talking about her, for example. She just seems to not be able to see where her life ends and ours begin. She also is weirdly obsessed with looks/weight (constant remarks about weight, even when I weighed less than 110 at 5'4) I have had disordered eating nearly my whole life (sneaking/hiding food, likely anorexic the first semester of college).

Anyway, that is the backstory. The problem I am having now is with my own children. Needless to say I am doing a few things differently in our home. We also live about 4 hours away, so there is some distance. But they looooooove Grandma. And Grandma milks that for all its worth. Goodbyes are like, "ohh, I am so sad, I have to go now, but I love you guys sooooo much and we will talk on the phone etc". The last time my mom was here my daughter (5) was exhausted from a busy day and cried that Grandma had to go when giving grandma a hug goodbye. I try to take her to bring her upstairs to bed, but grandma goes, "ohhh, she is sad that I'm going, let me just keep hugging her" clearly enjoying that my dd was so sad she was leaving.

She has started commenting on their appearance (both five and under)-- ie my daughter was wearing a costume shirt and we were going to take pictures for fun-- family memories-- and when my daughter did not want to take it off, "oh, we wil just take the picture from the neck up *laughter*" She also buys my daughter bags of clothes, the vast majority of her wardrobe. The way she does it, it seems like she is just trying to be generous, but there is also an undercurrent of that if she didn't my kids wouldn't have as nice of clothes. Chances are, we wouldn't have an entire wardrobe of hanna andersson, but they would be fine.

I do not want my daughter to develop the same complexes I had. She has started saying things about wearing particular clothes make her look beautiful-- and I am trying to reinforce that she is beautiful no matter what she wears-- but it makes me nervous. I also do not want them to be too close to grandma because I am afraid of her undermining me when it comes to dating in the future (we have different ideas about age appropriate datign guidelines, to say the least).

Advice? Am I overreacting? Am I underreacting?