Anonymous wrote:OP, you never fully know what goes on inside of someone's home. Sure, you spent a lot of time with the kids, but they were likely on their best behavior because they were with you.

Also, if this has been going on for well over a decade, why now? If you felt so strongly that her "demonizing" (and what does that mean?) behavior was destructive, why didn't you offer to take in the kid years ago when it actually could've made a difference?

At 18, she no longer has an obligation. That's hard for some people to accept, but it's the truth.

Have you always lived far from her? Because if you have, there's no way you were close enough to the situation to really know what was going on or if the kids had issues.

Besides judging, have you ever actually offered any assistance or support? I can't imagine adopting toddlers with unknown and possibly complicated/traumatic histories and then trying to deal with problems that arise.

It seems to me that people who adopt toddlers or older kids get the worst of all worlds. They do a selfless and kind thing by adopting children who are in need of a home and have been abandoned, but they have to deal with the emotional baggage those kids have *on top* of the regular trials and tribulations and adjustments that come with being a parent. On top of all of that, they are scrutinized more heavily than other parents because a higher standard is imposed on them than someone who just accidentally gets pregnant.

And yet, there are very little support resources for them. If they admit they are having trouble, they only come under greater scrutiny.

It's kind of a thankless, no-win scenario.

Being a friend goes both ways. It sounds like this woman was a good friend to you. She mentored you, was there for you. But now you judge her without offering her support or assistance. And you're contemplating abandoning her because she's not a good enough parent to be your friend.

As for the demonizing/angel splitting thing. Parents do that ALL of the time, but it seems to me that parents who adopt get judged more for it.

OP here. You make very good points. But I still feel angry at the way she has treated these kids. I have offered assistance, btw. When we lived close by each other I'd take one of the kids periodically on weekends. They were very cooperative with me, but I do get that all kids are better behaved with strangers.

I feel like my friend has not had expressed any insight into her own contribution to the problem. I have seen that she is the type who is frankly thirsty for something to blame as a convenience. This shows up in other places in her life, too. It's forgivable if she is griping about her boss. But when she's trying to blame kids for her own failings? Yuck.

The adoption piece is not relevant to me other than that I do give her enormous credit for taking on this burden. But then part of me, after observing this situation, thinks that she adopted kids so that she was owed gratitude. She used to insist that the kids earn their keep in the house basically, well above and beyond what typical parents ask of their kids in terms of chore contributions. If they didn't embody the notion that she did an enormous service to them and that they should be perfect, helpful children as a result she would get extremely resentful. What 11 year old gleefully folds all of the household's laundry?

I am just so torn.

OP, you never fully know what goes on inside of someone's home. Sure, you spent a lot of time with the kids, but they were likely on their best behavior because they were with you.

Also, if this has been going on for well over a decade, why now? If you felt so strongly that her "demonizing" (and what does that mean?) behavior was destructive, why didn't you offer to take in the kid years ago when it actually could've made a difference?

At 18, she no longer has an obligation. That's hard for some people to accept, but it's the truth.

Have you always lived far from her? Because if you have, there's no way you were close enough to the situation to really know what was going on or if the kids had issues.

Besides judging, have you ever actually offered any assistance or support? I can't imagine adopting toddlers with unknown and possibly complicated/traumatic histories and then trying to deal with problems that arise.

It seems to me that people who adopt toddlers or older kids get the worst of all worlds. They do a selfless and kind thing by adopting children who are in need of a home and have been abandoned, but they have to deal with the emotional baggage those kids have *on top* of the regular trials and tribulations and adjustments that come with being a parent. On top of all of that, they are scrutinized more heavily than other parents because a higher standard is imposed on them than someone who just accidentally gets pregnant.

And yet, there are very little support resources for them. If they admit they are having trouble, they only come under greater scrutiny.

It's kind of a thankless, no-win scenario.

Being a friend goes both ways. It sounds like this woman was a good friend to you. She mentored you, was there for you. But now you judge her without offering her support or assistance. And you're contemplating abandoning her because she's not a good enough parent to be your friend.

As for the demonizing/angel splitting thing. Parents do that ALL of the time, but it seems to me that parents who adopt get judged more for it.

OP do you have children ?

I know 2 parents who adopted older children with lots of mental issues. It has been very hard on them. One kid would call social services whenever he felt like it. Then the mom would have to explain that her adopted son had psychotic breaks even tho he could also be very charming. He grew older and so did his problems. ...
The other family has spent the last 20 years attempting to manage entrenched mental problems. Toddler adoption can be VERY Problematic.

Anonymous wrote:They may have entrenched mental problems. Typical of toddler adoptions. Sad. Don't judge.

Don't judge who? The mom needs to be judged because she's fucking up human beings who deserve better with her own shit.

Tell her you're not available and give her a list of hostels.

I couldn't host her or spend time me with someone like this. I'd do the opposite and invite the other kid in my house.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is obviously much harder to adopt toddlers however it sounds like she is the one with RAD and never bonded or attached to the kids so they were doomed to fail. I'd do the visit and pull away from her. If the kid is a good kid, can you take him in, get him into community college and help him move forward in her life. She didn't like parenting and basically gave the kids away as if they were disposable.

OP here. This is a really interesting perspective. I had never thought of it that way, but you might be right.

I am tempted to pursue this option but that is an awful lot of responsibility. I am 32, newly married, and looking to start a family of my own soon. I would like to reach out to him though, but I am not sure how that would go. On one hand I feel like it would be betraying my friend. But I am not sure I should care about that at this point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a dear friend for many years. This person is actually more than a friend because she is older than me and she was my mentor when I was a teenager. She is talented at her craft (concealing details for anonymity), she taught me the ropes when I was young, really took me under her wing, and was there for me when I was having a very difficult time with my own mother.

So when she chose to adopt two toddlers 15+ years ago, I thought she'd be an amazing mom. She had always been so compassionate and so loving with me.

But when the kids arrived, it wasn't long before she deeply resented being a mother. She started demonizing one of the kids immediately, complaining about the inherent evilness of this one kid and the amazing perfection of the other. Classic "splitting" type behavior. Then, over the years, the demon - angel attribution would reverse, and the previous demon would become the new angel.

My friend has her own issues from childhood, having been abandoned by her mother. I think having actual real live kids of her own to take care of instead of just a grateful part-time mentee (me), really brought those buried issues to the surface.

In any case, two days ago it was the younger child's 18th birthday. She had been demonizing this one for the past few years, and she sent him to live with his friend's family in Florida a few months back, paying the financially needy mom a monthly fee to keep him. He recently asked to come home, and since he just turned 18, she bought him a bus ticket and gave him a list of homeless shelters. She will not let him back in the house.

Honestly at this point I think it is best for him not to be around her, and I haven't encouraged her to feel guilty about her behavior. She has shown she is unwilling, unable, and uninterested in being a true mother to either of these kids. They are better off moving on from her.

But since i have my own feelings of gratitude towards her, I don't know how to proceed here. She is scheduled to visit me (we live in different parts of the country) in February. I am not currently looking forward to the visit at all.

Lastly, I want to add that I am aware of the issues that arise (RAD etc.) with some adopted children. I've spent a lot of time with these kids over the years, and while they are not perfect, they are good kids. They are kind-hearted, smart kids. I truly believe my friend is the problem here, not them.

If this was really true, and you really did understand the nature of RAD, you would know that the kids are very smart and manipulative and that one of the features of RAD is have a very charming personality towards strangers. Kind-hearted isn't necessarily a term I would use for a child with RAD. Maybe "well meaning at times" might be a better choice.

Until you have really lived the situation, you have no idea what her home life may have been like with this child. Sure, her own response was poor but I get it. It's easy for a parent, especially a single parent, to be worn down by the behaviors. It can be very hard to find caregivers or even respite care for children with challenging behaviors as well.

Even if a child does not have a RAD diagnosis, it's possible they have other diagnosises. FASD comes to mind and is a very difficult thing to deal with. It's not possible to know the extent of something like that until a child is older.

It's very possible the mom sought out counseling and help along the way. Many times parents are embarrassed to admit there are problems or even go into the type of the help they are getting so don't think just because she hasn't told you or denied it, that it wasn't really happening.

In the end, it really can be in the best interest of the child to move to another home. Sometimes that is what is truly needed for the child to heal and move on with their life in the right direction.

OP here. I agree with the bolded, but I maintain my view, which is based on a lot of exposure over the years to this family.

She would tell you that the times she called the cops, sent them to institutions, involved social services, etc. were all due to their RAD issues but I don't see any evidence of intolerable behavior from the kids. They were not stellar students but did not get into trouble at school, for example. The other child started to thrive when she went to live with a different family member. The older child was the original demon, and the younger child was the original angel. She only started demonizing the younger child after the older child moved out of the house at 14 an in with another relative.

Anonymous wrote:It is obviously much harder to adopt toddlers however it sounds like she is the one with RAD and never bonded or attached to the kids so they were doomed to fail. I'd do the visit and pull away from her. If the kid is a good kid, can you take him in, get him into community college and help him move forward in her life. She didn't like parenting and basically gave the kids away as if they were disposable.

OP here. This is a really interesting perspective. I had never thought of it that way, but you might be right.

It is obviously much harder to adopt toddlers however it sounds like she is the one with RAD and never bonded or attached to the kids so they were doomed to fail. I'd do the visit and pull away from her. If the kid is a good kid, can you take him in, get him into community college and help him move forward in her life. She didn't like parenting and basically gave the kids away as if they were disposable.

Anonymous wrote:I have a dear friend for many years. This person is actually more than a friend because she is older than me and she was my mentor when I was a teenager. She is talented at her craft (concealing details for anonymity), she taught me the ropes when I was young, really took me under her wing, and was there for me when I was having a very difficult time with my own mother.

So when she chose to adopt two toddlers 15+ years ago, I thought she'd be an amazing mom. She had always been so compassionate and so loving with me.

But when the kids arrived, it wasn't long before she deeply resented being a mother. She started demonizing one of the kids immediately, complaining about the inherent evilness of this one kid and the amazing perfection of the other. Classic "splitting" type behavior. Then, over the years, the demon - angel attribution would reverse, and the previous demon would become the new angel.

My friend has her own issues from childhood, having been abandoned by her mother. I think having actual real live kids of her own to take care of instead of just a grateful part-time mentee (me), really brought those buried issues to the surface.

In any case, two days ago it was the younger child's 18th birthday. She had been demonizing this one for the past few years, and she sent him to live with his friend's family in Florida a few months back, paying the financially needy mom a monthly fee to keep him. He recently asked to come home, and since he just turned 18, she bought him a bus ticket and gave him a list of homeless shelters. She will not let him back in the house.

Honestly at this point I think it is best for him not to be around her, and I haven't encouraged her to feel guilty about her behavior. She has shown she is unwilling, unable, and uninterested in being a true mother to either of these kids. They are better off moving on from her.

But since i have my own feelings of gratitude towards her, I don't know how to proceed here. She is scheduled to visit me (we live in different parts of the country) in February. I am not currently looking forward to the visit at all.

Lastly, I want to add that I am aware of the issues that arise (RAD etc.) with some adopted children. I've spent a lot of time with these kids over the years, and while they are not perfect, they are good kids. They are kind-hearted, smart kids. I truly believe my friend is the problem here, not them.

If this was really true, and you really did understand the nature of RAD, you would know that the kids are very smart and manipulative and that one of the features of RAD is have a very charming personality towards strangers. Kind-hearted isn't necessarily a term I would use for a child with RAD. Maybe "well meaning at times" might be a better choice.

Until you have really lived the situation, you have no idea what her home life may have been like with this child. Sure, her own response was poor but I get it. It's easy for a parent, especially a single parent, to be worn down by the behaviors. It can be very hard to find caregivers or even respite care for children with challenging behaviors as well.

Even if a child does not have a RAD diagnosis, it's possible they have other diagnosises. FASD comes to mind and is a very difficult thing to deal with. It's not possible to know the extent of something like that until a child is older.

It's very possible the mom sought out counseling and help along the way. Many times parents are embarrassed to admit there are problems or even go into the type of the help they are getting so don't think just because she hasn't told you or denied it, that it wasn't really happening.

In the end, it really can be in the best interest of the child to move to another home. Sometimes that is what is truly needed for the child to heal and move on with their life in the right direction.

Oh man that's awful. I'd look around for programs for the 18 year old.

They may have entrenched mental problems. Typical of toddler adoptions. Sad. Don't judge.

That's heartbreaking Op. I personally could not be friends with such a person. Homeless shelters, really!?

I have a dear friend for many years. This person is actually more than a friend because she is older than me and she was my mentor when I was a teenager. She is talented at her craft (concealing details for anonymity), she taught me the ropes when I was young, really took me under her wing, and was there for me when I was having a very difficult time with my own mother.

So when she chose to adopt two toddlers 15+ years ago, I thought she'd be an amazing mom. She had always been so compassionate and so loving with me.

But when the kids arrived, it wasn't long before she deeply resented being a mother. She started demonizing one of the kids immediately, complaining about the inherent evilness of this one kid and the amazing perfection of the other. Classic "splitting" type behavior. Then, over the years, the demon - angel attribution would reverse, and the previous demon would become the new angel.

My friend has her own issues from childhood, having been abandoned by her mother. I think having actual real live kids of her own to take care of instead of just a grateful part-time mentee (me), really brought those buried issues to the surface.

In any case, two days ago it was the younger child's 18th birthday. She had been demonizing this one for the past few years, and she sent him to live with his friend's family in Florida a few months back, paying the financially needy mom a monthly fee to keep him. He recently asked to come home, and since he just turned 18, she bought him a bus ticket and gave him a list of homeless shelters. She will not let him back in the house.

Honestly at this point I think it is best for him not to be around her, and I haven't encouraged her to feel guilty about her behavior. She has shown she is unwilling, unable, and uninterested in being a true mother to either of these kids. They are better off moving on from her.

But since i have my own feelings of gratitude towards her, I don't know how to proceed here. She is scheduled to visit me (we live in different parts of the country) in February. I am not currently looking forward to the visit at all.

Lastly, I want to add that I am aware of the issues that arise (RAD etc.) with some adopted children. I've spent a lot of time with these kids over the years, and while they are not perfect, they are good kids. They are kind-hearted, smart kids. I truly believe my friend is the problem here, not them.